Author Topic: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.  (Read 2178890 times)

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13230 on: June 20, 2020, 03:32:40 PM »
Helen us kids were in the cave many times , as for saying what i was shown once is not for Discussion
on here ,that is a matter for little phone chat  ;)

Where were you shown it, in the urinals or the cave? Either way I bet you got out of there at 90 mph.

I'll be in Yorkshire from Monday to Thursday and will pm you and send you the number when I arrive. Every time I walk down Burnley Road and see that place you painted I think about you. You're a tonic.  :-*
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13231 on: June 20, 2020, 03:37:18 PM »
So Tommy, thanks for letting me know about the blurred photos. It's a nightmare to me to have to flick back. It's such a shame they had to go but yea, hopefully everyone's saved the collection (or at least the ones they particularly liked). I've still a few that never made it to the thread. Has anyone thought of doing a blog and putting them on it?
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13232 on: June 20, 2020, 09:28:15 PM »


Tommy, I'm just checking to see what happens when old photos are resurrected from earlier pages. I managed to get myself to page three without falling into my fire (which is lit all year round). Anyway, I acquired this photo (hard copy) about 30-35 years ago. It might have been 40 years I've stopped counting. It was taken from the top of Ross House by an art teacher from Mount Vernon School who later painted the water-colour I still have. Photobucket are a set of cheeky baxters shamelessly plastering their name all over this. I wonder why they seek to deface images? Why not just take them down altogether. Vandals.
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tommytwotoes

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13233 on: June 20, 2020, 10:01:10 PM »
Where were you shown it, in the urinals or the cave? Either way I bet you got out of there at 90 mph.

I'll be in Yorkshire from Monday to Thursday and will pm you and send you the number when I arrive. Every time I walk down Burnley Road and see that place you painted I think about you. You're a tonic.  :-*
Hi Helen i still have the number you gave me way back , so unless you have changed number then by all means send new one look forward to having a good catch up with you ,, and what i was shown is hopefully NOT what your thinking  :D :-*
speak soon stay safe ,
regards tommy
i never drop players ,i only make changes (shanks) justice for the 96

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13234 on: June 21, 2020, 09:35:31 AM »
Don't worry Tommy, we old biddies have to have our little jokes. I'm very much back on the road in my mind, and the assortment of things people felt the need to draw our attention to back then rules nothing out and just about everything in. I'm trying to think right now of the most unusual thing I was shown (and no doubt it will have been on the Tip Head).

Speaking of seeing odd things, one time when I went back for a holiday after living here a few years, they were burning the gas off on the Head in a new move to de-methane the ground underneath. A steady flame could be seen coming from an apparatus way in the distance (where the lough should have been). So I took myself over there to chuck on a few spuds, but found it was twenty feet high and looked like it was coming out of a structure like a windmill without the blades. (I didn't really bring spuds but I went all the same). I can't remember what environmental infringement got it all stopped in the end, but the Olympic Torch had nothing on it. It was a roaring conflagration with an almost spiritual feel to it. No wonder. All the years of crap dragged in on lorries from all over Belfast fuelled it, drops of Sloane's Linament still in the bottle, ancient radio batteries, Virol bone marrow etc. And not even one home got the benefit of the heat. Not even the workman's hut. The brains of these people are in their arm-holes. I wonder whose cough got a lot worse when the thing was lit. You didn't need to smoke or take drugs on the Shore Road back then, all the poisons you could dream of were free for all and going into your system like Billy-o. Regards.  :hi:

Oh Tommy: if you are going to tell me the type of thing I suspect you're going to tell me, it'll half kill me keeping the secret but I'll do it. You have my solemn word in writing here on a truly Holy Day: Solstice.  :-*
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13235 on: June 21, 2020, 12:10:44 PM »
Hi Helen i still have the number you gave me way back , so unless you have changed number then by all means send new one look forward to having a good catch up with you ,, and what i was shown is hopefully NOT what your thinking  :D :-*
speak soon stay safe ,
regards tommy

Oh Tommy, see your pm's it's not my house I'm going to, but Wilfie's, so there's a new number. Regards.
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13236 on: June 24, 2020, 11:10:08 PM »
It's drawing ever closer to the weekend and I just hope that Tommy will come on and tell the thread -- particularly old fans of the Ringan Point subject -- part of what he told me. The greater part, unfortunately, is kind of sensitive material; but be assured that the composite picture is one which goes quite some way to proving an ancient site of Pagan worship at Ringan Point and indeed a de-consecrated graveyard later on. Guess where?: "on the rising ground North of the Arches." I only wish some of the old detractors who said we wouldn't find out were around now so as I could ram it up them big style. Incidentally, academia would not be interested, because the Shore Road is a forgotten, disregarded place. But not to us. Who wants them anyway with their trite phrases, trowels and marbles-in-the-mouth accents? Regards.
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13237 on: June 24, 2020, 11:39:41 PM »
Hallo Margaret, please could you send Tommy the other images you sent to me along with the picture of the cottage? He's interested in viewing the rest. Also, could you tell him the source of the images? Thanks a lot.
Helen  :hi:
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tommytwotoes

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13238 on: June 29, 2020, 04:05:05 PM »
It's drawing ever closer to the weekend and I just hope that Tommy will come on and tell the thread -- particularly old fans of the Ringan Point subject -- part of what he told me. The greater part, unfortunately, is kind of sensitive material; but be assured that the composite picture is one which goes quite some way to proving an ancient site of Pagan worship at Ringan Point and indeed a de-consecrated graveyard later on. Guess where?: "on the rising ground North of the Arches." I only wish some of the old detractors who said we wouldn't find out were around now so as I could ram it up them big style. Incidentally, academia would not be interested, because the Shore Road is a forgotten, disregarded place. But not to us. Who wants them anyway with their trite phrases, trowels and marbles-in-the-mouth accents? Regards.
images to upload ,, Hi Helen sorry been bizzy , i have done this pic of the fortwilliam grange so use your imagination , bottom left blue marks arches the red arrows show what is Rising ground and the black is where the old steps went up to flats the brown area is what use to be our old football pitch , about a year or so back
i reconnected with an old friend , i paid him a visit to the north of England he had become a teacher in one of the Universities up there , anyway he brought up the way things had changed back home and i mentioned about all the flats that were built on our play areas , when he said, tommy they put them flats on the fortwilliam side to cover up the mass graves pretending i knew nothing about them i asked what graves ,he told me all about them and then said he found several BONES , i asked where did you find them he told me it would of been to the right of where they put the steps looking onto the fortwilliam road  do you mean where the ground slopes away , no he said , i found them on what use to be our old football pitch , he told me he took them to some place (I CANT REMEMBER IT)in Belfast obviously something to do with old bones , they took all his details as he wanted to know how old they where ,,, months had gone by when one day he was in town and decided to pop into the place ,,,,,,,, guess what they told him THERE IS NO RECORDS OF HIM OR ANY BONES in their files,, sorry sir we dont know what your talking about , i cant say his name on here for reasons only i know
but i can assure you he would have no reason to tell me porkies he is actually well known across the world for his work now, and i believe what he told me , the yellow spot is roughly where he discovered the bones hope you can figure my markings out ,
regards tommy  :-*
i never drop players ,i only make changes (shanks) justice for the 96

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13239 on: June 29, 2020, 07:25:15 PM »
Tommy, thank you very much for telling that story and providing a plan to demonstrate. Can I just add that you had mentioned to me that when your friend found the bones, the land was possibly in preparation for the building of Mount Vernon Green, meaning that early work had begun. Possibly, then, the bones had come to the surface as a result of this, and rain.

We heard on the thread years back that plague victims had possibly been buried on the site of what was a much, much earlier graveyard here. To date, your friend's testimony is the most compelling evidence that this is an ancient site. The fact that the place he took the bones to completely whitewashed the situation strongly suggests that they were indeed human bones and by the protocol connected to these matters, an archaeological excavation should have taken place. But no doubt the building of Mount Vernon Green would have been halted for too long, and that wouldn't have suited various parties involved in the building of the maisonettes. Hence the whole thing was hushed up.

I've a bit of knowledge of this as I'd a friend in Islandmagee who purchased a row of three or four derelict cottages to turn into a single dwelling. A number of more or less complete skeletons were found when his place was in renovation and the entire thing was halted for months whilst the archaeologists came down to do their jobs in Kilcoan More. (The skeletons turned out to be from 9th or 10th century). However, this was the matter of a private house in the course of renovation. Where Mount Vernon Green was concerned,  well it was whole other issue, and no doubt money and the day-to-day intrigues of the planning office make the world go round.

ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING.
Regards,

Helen  :-*
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tommytwotoes

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13240 on: June 29, 2020, 08:53:03 PM »
yes Helen he found the bones when the land was being prepared for the building works
there would of been trenches dug out for the footings and the oversite which would of
been all back filled with concrete and it makes sense to me when the description says
the graves were to the north of the Arches on the high ground i mean you would.nt
bury someone on the slopes would you , will pm my email for you
regards tommy :-*
i never drop players ,i only make changes (shanks) justice for the 96

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13241 on: June 29, 2020, 09:25:12 PM »
Tommy, thanks for that further clarification. I'm sure that it's right that the bodies were on the summit of the rising ground - North of the Arches. But in fact, in these "liminal" places, people could indeed be buried on slopes, for after all they were deemed "unfit" for proper burial for the "sin" of dying out of the vogue of Christian niceties. This is why de-consecrated sites were used for them: the Christian clerics having removed the "sanctity" in the de-consecrating ceremony. I'd recap the whole thing here but I daresay people will know what we've been banging on about for years and what the implications are.

But briefly this anyway: it's somewhat ironic that people centuries ago deemed unfiT for Christian burial have at Fortwilliam possibly been interred in a place of worship which pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years. In the eyes of some, they are buried in "fit and appropriate" ground. The old religions of worship of the landscape being the only real ones. What else can we do if we don't have some kind of spiritual pact with the landscape which has reared us? Go for Middle Eastern gods? Not likely for some of us.

Tommy, send me your email again and I'll get those images to you. I have long since forgotten how to re-send images sent to me via PM here.
Keep up the good work, I appreciate it no end. Regards.
Helen xx
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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13242 on: July 04, 2020, 02:34:25 PM »
Hallo folks. I have had an inquiry in p.m. as to what the secrets of Ringan Point add up to. Would that I knew the entire picture! But I don't, and all we can ever do is guess and put together sundry pieces of information to attempt to understand.
Therefore I am answering this inquiry on the thread, so as interested others can see, as we move on and into new facts and anecdotes to try to fathom it all out. Here and now I'll go over a few things again and "join the dots" of the sensitive part of tommy's information without actually giving anything away he told me as it is something which, unfortunately, can't be widely known.
So as we know: tommy's friend years ago found the bones and the whole thing was conveniently hushed up as Mount Vernon Green had been started. Any archaeological dig would have halted the progress of the building, and so we can surmise that certain wheels already in motion weren't going to be ground to a halt by the bones of unfortunates long ago interred there.

Prior to tommy, Walter and others playing football on this roughly-circular makeshift pitch, that land was pasture land. Tommy and co. were playing there in the sixties, but we have testimony as to what was there in 1939 via my mother who remembered the area fenced off, and sheep grazing. There is reference to this earlier in the thread. She was evacuated in 1939 and so we can only assume that a bit of farming continued there for some years until agriculture collapsed as the Shore Road became less rural and more suburban,  the vacant land becoming the makeshift the pitch.
(Next part in a few minutes).

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Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13243 on: July 04, 2020, 03:31:19 PM »

So how long was this particular piece of land a pasture? I'm far away from my notes right now, but as this land belonged to the original Mount Vernon Estate, it is fairly safe to say that the rolling ground here at the summit of Ringan Point was pasture land perhaps from 1819, as that is the earliest reference I've ever been able to find to a house. And this is where I'd need my notes, because right now I forget who was in occupancy in 1819. But it was a lady, presumably living alone. (It may have been a Miss Crawford). Anyone interested can see reference to this on the thread earlier.
Anyway, that means that there was a house there in 1819. Whether it was the same house as the one we recall, or whether an earlier edifice was on the site is something I've never been able to find out. If there is anyone out there knows, please don't be backward in coming forward as there are a few of us who would love to see evidence of an earlier mansion. Or evidence of anything else there which would constitute another piece of the jigsaw.

Now we'll have to deal with the complication of an earlier house closer to Ringan Point than Mount Vernon House. "Ringsend/Ringen" I think it was called, but without notes I'm at a handicap. It was demolished around 1830 and the land added to the Mount Vernon Estate. So maybe the 1819 date is too early for a pasture, and that Mount Vernon only acquired this piece of land circa 1830. But it is difficult to know where the boundaries of Ringsend House were (the earlier house). It could be the case that Mount Vernon House in 1830 already owned the grazing land and that when Ringsend House was demolished, it merely sat on a small fraction of land there which was then acquired by Mount Vernon to add to its acres. (If Ringen House owned the land which once held the burial ground, it may simply have been part of a landscaped garden until Mount Vernon acquired it and put sheep on it).

Jim put on, years ago, two interesting cuttings re. this Ringen/Ringsend house. One was a theft early in the 1800s, by servants working there, and the other was the loss of a dog from it, the owners appealing for its return. They are somewhere on the thread.

However, the point is that any graveyard there pre-dated 1830 (and possibly 1819) when either Mount Vernon or Ringsend House had title to the land.
Now we're back to another earlier part of the thread. Someone breezed on (and quickly off again) who claimed to know that victims of the plague had been buried there. What plague and when no-one has ever been able to find out unless someone in the background knows. The Black Death/Bubonic plague? This is the only plague I know about. Having looked it up for Ireland I notice that it says it spread in Ireland in 1348, coming in on ships' rats via the East Coast. So that sort of tallies. But were there other plagues? I don't know.

So is it possible that the bones discovered by tommy's friend were the bones of plague victims? And that the land at Ringan Point was sealed up and considered unfit until the building of Mount Vernon House and/or Ringsend House when the land would become part of these estates?
What I, and others, think entirely possible is that the plague victims might have been buried here on a graveyard which was deconsecrated hundreds of years before: that a Christian site was superimposed on a pagan precinct of worship at the time of Saint Ninian/Ringan by that very man. According to the records he died in 432 A.D. That Christian church then had its day (older traditions die hard) and the graveyard was deconsecrated. This isn't speculation but the idea of the one-time Bishop of Down and Connor whose name I can't remember right now, but to whom reference has been made earlier on the thread.

So it's easy to see folks that we have, here on the Shore Road, a very interesting place.

And now for tommy's latest testimony: what he told me equals a fantastic addition to the overall mystery and something which suggests that the past was alive with happenings of high intrigue. Yes. Tommy knows about a certain something very nearby which suggests activity going back hundreds, if not thousands, of years at a place adjacent to that site. Sheep were grazing away in 1939, possibly over plague-victims' remains, and persons from much earlier times, and later on Tommy and his pals were scoring goals. But nearby there was something which would have made them drop the ball in awe and wonder.  :hi:
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tours

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #13244 on: July 06, 2020, 10:41:57 PM »
Anyone know Davy Wilson, use to live in York Drive?