Author Topic: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.  (Read 1257808 times)

Jimmy55

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4815 on: July 02, 2014, 09:22:42 AM »
Dargan

Re my last post, I'm thinking this may be  Peggy Barclay's  Inn. What do you think.?



Jimmy

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4816 on: July 02, 2014, 09:50:01 AM »
Jimmy!

That is another really excellent find! Thank you very much for posting it, and please post anything similar. A "spirit, grocery and beer-dealer's premises." I would have thought it had to be Fortwilliam Cash Stores which was there, at the end of Fortview Terrace (where Peggy's hairstylist was in our day); however, the description of 1 acre of ground with the property baffles me! Though it's possible that each of those houses stretched back to the lough in sizeable plots. So could this indeed be Peggy Barclay's old Inn? Right now I haven't a clue, but I'm going to enjoy working it out! The more this Fortwilliam area is looked at, the more mysteries it throws up!

The very fact that you have also shown another advert for "Loughview" shows that the terrace names were referred to, so that maybe rules out the above being "Fortwilliam Cash Stores" as it would have said something like, "at Fortview" or "Fortview Terrace."

But what does it mean, "held by free-farm grant at 40 a year." ? Is this the farmlands on Ringan Point which were to become Lewis and Creighton's farms by my Mother's day?

This thread really is SUPERB. All those years ago when I started thinking about all this I'd no idea that some day it would mushroom like this, and others would be coming forward with photo's and pieces of information.

Jim, this is really good. I think groover said ages ago that he remembered the allotments at the back of those houses. Now what I'd like to hear from anyone who remembers, and who can internally visualise space, is it conceivable that these houses each sat in an acre?

Marvellous stuff, and most definitely a further clue to the lay of the land around Ringan Point.

Regards,
H.
Pablo Picasso was never called an arm-hole....not like you.

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4817 on: July 02, 2014, 09:55:37 AM »
WELL HOPEFULLY HE WONT FIND OUT ROBERT ,,,,  but sure we done daft things when we where young ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well I did  :)

Tommy, you were man enough to admit that, and for the sake of our entertainment too, so good for you. No matter what scintillating lives we've had or things we can boast of, we've all acted like idiots from time to time. Me more than most.

Regards,
H.
Pablo Picasso was never called an arm-hole....not like you.

Jimmy55

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4818 on: July 02, 2014, 10:27:46 AM »




But what does it mean, "held by free-farm grant at 40 a year." ? Is this the farmlands on Ringan Point which were to become Lewis and Creighton's farms by my Mother's day?

.



.


Dargan

Just googled this  re: Fee Farm Grant


In English and Irish law, a Fee farm grant is a hybrid type of land ownership typical in cities and towns. The word "fee" is derived from fief, meaning a feudal landholding, and a fee farm grant is similar to a fee simple in the sense that it gives the grantee the right to hold a freehold estate, the only difference being the payment of an annual rent (farm being an archaic word for rent) and covenants, thus putting both parties in a landlord-tenant relationship.


Jimmy

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4819 on: July 02, 2014, 11:30:15 AM »
Jimmy, I'd realised afterwards that I'd thought it said "free."

I think that you're possibly right: that this has to have been Peggy Barclay's! Does "licensed premises" unambiguously refer to a tavern? Yes, it has to! Doesn't it?

Here's what I'm speculating: it's either Peggy's or some other public house! Something in the corner of my mind tells me that I read about another tavern at the bottom of Fortwilliam, but I can't recall where I read it! Maybe Peggy's became "The Fortwilliam Arms," and yet, if this is the case, here's another landmark we hear nothing about!

All this possibly validates the image Trevor showed us months ago -- the one we all speculated on for days. Could it also mean that Belleview Cottage was part and parcel of the complex mentioned in this advert?--"Property and licensed premises."

I wonder did this place become Lewis' and Creighton's farms on Ringan Point?

Jim, you've sent my head spinning like mad, but thanks for it! It'll have to be eggs for breakfast to help me think, for I can't go back to cereal now.  :D ;)

Regards,
H.


Pablo Picasso was never called an arm-hole....not like you.

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4820 on: July 02, 2014, 11:38:45 AM »
Dargan

Just googled this  re: Fee Farm Grant


In English and Irish law, a Fee farm grant is a hybrid type of land ownership typical in cities and towns. The word "fee" is derived from fief, meaning a feudal landholding, and a fee farm grant is similar to a fee simple in the sense that it gives the grantee the right to hold a freehold estate, the only difference being the payment of an annual rent (farm being an archaic word for rent) and covenants, thus putting both parties in a landlord-tenant relationship.


Jimmy

This also is educational in respect to house deeds I've seen (barely decipherable to us laymen for deliberate reasons........I wish there was an emoticon for "spitting"). These covenants you see on Victorian deeds are derived from feudal homage.  They are full of odd clauses which I now see the reason for. Thanks for that.

Regards,
H.
Pablo Picasso was never called an arm-hole....not like you.

Jimmy55

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4821 on: July 02, 2014, 12:12:49 PM »

Jim, you've sent my head spinning like mad, but thanks for it! It'll have to be eggs for breakfast to help me think, for I can't go back to cereal now.  :D ;)

Regards,
H.


 :D :D  plus toast and Margarine. :D :D  ;)


Jimmy

Canadianraptor

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4822 on: July 02, 2014, 12:15:31 PM »
Here's a couple of pictures of Lismara House, built in 1850 for J. Finlay. The first picture was June 21, 1934 and the second Apr 6, 1949, at both times the house was owned by the McCullagh family!
Robert




"Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37)

Canadianraptor

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4823 on: July 02, 2014, 12:21:57 PM »
Here is a picture of The Abbey which was built in 1850 for Richard Davison, who at one time was associated with Ringan House/Mount Vernon, I believe. Around 1860 it was bought by Charles (later Sir) Lanyon and around 1890 it seems to have become a sanatorium for White Abbey Hospital! If anyone else has any thoughts on this I'd like to hear them.
Robert

"Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37)

Canadianraptor

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4824 on: July 02, 2014, 12:28:37 PM »
This is a picture of Abbeylands that was owned by the McCalmont family (from earliest evidence it was owned by them from 1823) and later burned down by Suffragettes on Mar 26, 1914. It's not a great image but it's the only one I can find so far!
Robert

"Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37)

Jimmy55

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4825 on: July 02, 2014, 12:42:38 PM »


I think that you're possibly right: that this has to have been Peggy Barclay's! Does "licensed premises" unambiguously refer to a tavern? Yes, it has to! Doesn't it?




quote]

Dargan

"licensed premises" would constitute Pub/ Inn / Tavern /etc . Anywhere that sells Alcohol.


Jimmy

ge

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4826 on: July 02, 2014, 01:32:43 PM »
thanks canadian raptor for the pictures of the big houses. They were all beautiful.

Canadianraptor

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4827 on: July 02, 2014, 02:59:41 PM »
thanks canadian raptor for the pictures of the big houses. They were all beautiful.


U R welcome!
"Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37)

Dargan

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4828 on: July 02, 2014, 07:52:00 PM »
Here's an interesting ad for a piece of Shore Road real estate 1899,



Jimmy

Ok, so regarding us thinking that this could be Peggy Barclay's old Inn which by 1899 probably went under another name:

The measurement of land offered with this property is approximately 1.8 acres, so I think that there's no way that Fortwilliam Cash Stores at the end of Fortview Terrace would have had this land attached to it.

Now it says opposite Fortwilliam Park, so was Peggy Barclay's, or its later incarnation, roughly beside what we knew as Aerocrete? Remember the date stone on Aerocrete that I put on ages ago? I'm sorry, but with this vertigo I can't flick back to bring that image forward, but I'm sure it is 1896. So I think we can assume that there was a licensed premises beside what was Aerocrete and that there is a strong possibility that it was Peggy Barclay's famous curds and whey joint. This just gets better and better!

Thank you Jim for finding that. I'm thrilled.  :) :-*

Tommy has something amazing lined up which will have us all scratching our heads.

If anyone would care to bring forward the picture of Aerocrete with the date-plaque, I'd be grateful. Also Trevor's image of the painting and my other image of Peggy's hairstylist at Fortview Terrace to illustrate the thinking behind all of this.  :)

Regards,
H.
Pablo Picasso was never called an arm-hole....not like you.

Canadianraptor

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Re: Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.
« Reply #4829 on: July 02, 2014, 08:26:33 PM »
Tommy,
Sorry for using your picture but I was trying out a new process to add text to a picture as Photoshop is a PITA to do so! See what you think?
Robert


"Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven" (Luke 6:37)