Author Topic: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST  (Read 42157 times)

jillyfred

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #480 on: April 15, 2019, 11:59:41 AM »
I don`t think anyone wishes to hinder anything GandT.

However,in many geographical locations in N.I. there is little,if any,mixing of Roman Catholic or
Protestant adults or children.

Introducing a State System for all children from age 4 until 18 to be educated together would hopefully
eventually solve this sad state of affairs.

I take your point about the buildings and of course a lot would probably become unsuitable for many reasons
from the point of view of both communities.

Personally I do not agree with Religion in schools other than as simply a `history of religions`subject
-home and the place one goes on a Sunday is to my mind the place for it.

I do accept,however,due to the way many people feel about the whole subject, and given the history
of Ireland as a whole,there is very little chance of this suggested solution ever coming to pass.

Still one can always hope that future generations will have a very different approach than the one
we have at the present time.

Just IMHO as always.

jilly

 

GandT

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #481 on: April 15, 2019, 01:52:56 PM »

However,in many geographical locations in N.I. there is little,if any,mixing of Roman Catholic or
Protestant adults or children.

Introducing a State System for all children from age 4 until 18 to be educated together would hopefully
eventually solve this sad state of affairs.


I take your point about the buildings and of course a lot would probably become unsuitable for many reasons
from the point of view of both communities.

Personally I do not agree with Religion in schools other than as simply a `history of religions`subject
-home and the place one goes on a Sunday is to my mind the place for it.

I do accept,however,due to the way many people feel about the whole subject, and given the history
of Ireland as a whole,there is very little chance of this suggested solution ever coming to pass.

Still one can always hope that future generations will have a very different approach than the one
we have at the present time.

Just IMHO as always.

jilly


Nearly all evidence in all countries over a considerable period shows that schools [on their own] cannot solve society's problems. The difficulty for NI schools is not merely what you say yourself is the problem - lack of integration in geographical areas - but a long and complicated history of conflict with schools having very, very, very marginal corrective impact on that. There is no evidence that anything done or taught in schools has led to people being involved in conflict or having bigoted views; there is evidence to the contrary - that ALL schools, Catholic and Controlled, actually made positive contributions in providing safe, secure and stabilising environments over our most recent troubles. Many of those who were first inclined to advocate integrated schools were noticeably absent from advocating shared employment practice, equality of opportunity and access, integrated housing, equal allocation of housing, equal representation on civic bodies, equal representation at governmental level and so on from the inception of the state.

We do have a state system. These are the Controlled schools; nothing in these schools says that Catholic children or children of other faiths cannot attend. Nothing in the 'Catholic' system - the word means 'universal' - precludes Protestant children or others from attending. The Protestant churches [wrongly in my view] transferred church control of schools to the state.

Churches are not buildings but people and religious beliefs are not items to be tucked away and observed in a state of splendid isolation from all other things going on around us. Catholic ethos is not a matter of a few prayers or a set of instructions or catechism answers but a living, breathing and consistently sounding chord throughout all activities in a school day. It is not separate from Science or Maths or any other subject but the underlying reason why we study - to know, love and serve God - through knowledge and advancement of human talent. Moral and ethical education is part of the remit of schools - if people want to do that through a purely rational, humanist, agnostic or atheistic point of view - fine. The state has no right to foist that on all any more than the Catholic or Controlled systems demand that all children must attend their schools. Besides, as far as I am aware, and I stand open to correction on this, all schools [including integrated schools] profess some religious ethos as part of their mission statements and provide different degrees of some religious teaching. So, if we are talking about integrated schools here in NI that are purely state-funded, secular, non-religious and totally neutral on religion I don't think they exist. If they did I am not sure that parents would opt for them.

No-one that I know of is opposed to 'integrated education' where this is desirable and feasible e.g. by shared sites, subject teaching, shared resources, shared staffing and so on. The notion that there is a great clamour or demand for schools that have INTEGRATED STATUS i.e. are formally GRANT MAINTAINED INTEGRATED SCHOOLS is a false and exaggerated one - only 7% after 45 years or more.

Would the type of schools envisaged have no religious icons; no Catholic symbols; no liturgical or non-liturgical services; no corporate act of worship; no oratory etc. The ABSENCE of these is not a neutral stance - it is a declared position since they would be requirements of any set of Catholic parents and communities.


jillyfred

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #482 on: April 15, 2019, 02:47:11 PM »
Well GandT you have been very prolific in your defence of a system that obviously is close to your heart and of great importance to you.

I respect that in all sincerity.

I am of an age where none of it really matters to me personally -just would like to see both communities
coming together for what really does matter in this life-what all decent people want for themselves and
their families.

Obviously your a religious person and your religion is very important to you.
I had a good upbringing myself in that way-but always tempered with the fact-our friends go to a
different place on a Sunday.

Whist we attended the Chapels for our friends ceremonies-they were forbidden to attend ours.At our
funerals they stood outside.At our Weddings,Christenings-they joined us for the festivities.
Thankfully for many years now that is no longer the case -at the time we never bothered about it as they
were our friends and we understood their position.

It has been mentioned on the Forum about the Orange Lodges not attending Chapels.
I am simply giving the `other side `to that.

Not, as I have said previously on the Forum ,were any members of my family down the years ever
members of any societies or political parties in NI.

Others who obviously had, and continue to have, and support-on both sides-that`s their business.

I trust GandT we can agree to disagree!
I wish you and yours a Very Happy Easter.

jilly


tours

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #483 on: April 15, 2019, 03:00:31 PM »
Nearly all evidence in all countries over a considerable period shows that schools [on their own] cannot solve society's problems. The difficulty for NI schools is not merely what you say yourself is the problem - lack of integration in geographical areas - but a long and complicated history of conflict with schools having very, very, very marginal corrective impact on that. There is no evidence that anything done or taught in schools has led to people being involved in conflict or having bigoted views; there is evidence to the contrary - that ALL schools, Catholic and Controlled, actually made positive contributions in providing safe, secure and stabilising environments over our most recent troubles. Many of those who were first inclined to advocate integrated schools were noticeably absent from advocating shared employment practice, equality of opportunity and access, integrated housing, equal allocation of housing, equal representation on civic bodies, equal representation at governmental level and so on from the inception of the state.

We do have a state system. These are the Controlled schools; nothing in these schools says that Catholic children or children of other faiths cannot attend. Nothing in the 'Catholic' system - the word means 'universal' - precludes Protestant children or others from attending. The Protestant churches [wrongly in my view] transferred church control of schools to the state.

Churches are not buildings but people and religious beliefs are not items to be tucked away and observed in a state of splendid isolation from all other things going on around us. Catholic ethos is not a matter of a few prayers or a set of instructions or catechism answers but a living, breathing and consistently sounding chord throughout all activities in a school day. It is not separate from Science or Maths or any other subject but the underlying reason why we study - to know, love and serve God - through knowledge and advancement of human talent. Moral and ethical education is part of the remit of schools - if people want to do that through a purely rational, humanist, agnostic or atheistic point of view - fine. The state has no right to foist that on all any more than the Catholic or Controlled systems demand that all children must attend their schools. Besides, as far as I am aware, and I stand open to correction on this, all schools [including integrated schools] profess some religious ethos as part of their mission statements and provide different degrees of some religious teaching. So, if we are talking about integrated schools here in NI that are purely state-funded, secular, non-religious and totally neutral on religion I don't think they exist. If they did I am not sure that parents would opt for them.

No-one that I know of is opposed to 'integrated education' where this is desirable and feasible e.g. by shared sites, subject teaching, shared resources, shared staffing and so on. The notion that there is a great clamour or demand for schools that have INTEGRATED STATUS i.e. are formally GRANT MAINTAINED INTEGRATED SCHOOLS is a false and exaggerated one - only 7% after 45 years or more.

Would the type of schools envisaged have no religious icons; no Catholic symbols; no liturgical or non-liturgical services; no corporate act of worship; no oratory etc. The ABSENCE of these is not a neutral stance - it is a declared position since they would be requirements of any set of Catholic parents and communities.
A great read, GandT.
It is kind of connected to those, that would have us believe the troubles was started by a few bad men. 😉🤔
Integrated education solving all Our problems ?? Lol.
Working class Loyalists/Protestants would do better, at asking why the DUP protect the transfer test???
A test that discriminates socially disadvantaged young Protestants.
Which in turn has an negative effect on the rest of their lives.

saul

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #484 on: April 15, 2019, 03:51:40 PM »
Hi Folks been a while since i was i on. Cant believe some of the remarks being made. Never embarrassed to be where i am from, proud of it. Agree that terrible things were perpetrated by all sides , but i don't want to live in a divided past, i want to move on , and speak to anyone about topics on this forum, but as always some people cant move on. Sad to say. One thing we have in common is a love of our city and its hinterlands.


GandT

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #485 on: April 15, 2019, 05:22:51 PM »

I trust GandT we can agree to disagree!
I wish you and yours a Very Happy Easter.

jilly


Absolutely. Have agreed to disagree before; have, on occasions, agreed totally with you and sometimes partly. Long may it continue - have always found a good deal of sense and reason in what you have to say. Perspectives and interpretations [and thank God for it] may be different here and there but sure isn't variety the spice of life - don't need to come out with cudgels flailing! Happy Easter to you Jillyfred!

Hi Folks been a while since i was i on. Cant believe some of the remarks being made. Never embarrassed to be where i am from, proud of it. Agree that terrible things were perpetrated by all sides , but i don't want to live in a divided past, i want to move on , and speak to anyone about topics on this forum, but as always some people cant move on. Sad to say. One thing we have in common is a love of our city and its hinterlands.


It's all a matter of balance. There is no particular, wonderful reason to be proud of Belfast and no great reason to be embarrassed either in my view. I don't have any particular love of the city nor do I have any particular detestation - it's just where I happened to be born and have chosen [or drifted] to stay here. It's no better and no worse than most other places and, given its set of historical and political circumstances, it has made some strides forward - occasionally one forward, two back - but at least a slow forward march. It is not strange or terrible that people put forward or argue from very different angles since that is part of the long and more immediate history. It isn't possible to move on without addressing and rectifying the past - is progress simply a process of amnesia or is it better to know and lance the wounds?

syriana

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #486 on: April 15, 2019, 05:58:45 PM »
Good advice GandT.  But unfortunately the past is the comfort zone for some people while others just enjoy being a victim.  Northern Ireland is a special place because the troubles have made victimhood and the past synonymous.

If you live in the past you have dominion power over your own territory but you confine yourself in a cage which you build yourself i.e. your comfort zone.  This cage can be a place where aspirations fade and dreams die.  It can also prevent you from enjoying a more abundant life.

A mild example.... just look at the number of potentially interesting posts on this forum which rapidly descend into sectarian banter by posters too frightened to leave their comfort zones.
The Truth is a Lie Which Hasn't Been Found Out.

GandT

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #487 on: April 15, 2019, 08:37:18 PM »
Good advice GandT.  But unfortunately the past is the comfort zone for some people while others just enjoy being a victim.  Northern Ireland is a special place because the troubles have made victimhood and the past synonymous.

If you live in the past you have dominion power over your own territory but you confine yourself in a cage which you build yourself i.e. your comfort zone.  This cage can be a place where aspirations fade and dreams die.  It can also prevent you from enjoying a more abundant life.

A mild example.... just look at the number of potentially interesting posts on this forum which rapidly descend into sectarian banter by posters too frightened to leave their comfort zones.


I agree that there is a  major difference between acknowledging hurts suffered and hurts inflicted with a view to exorcising the past and simply nursing hurt in order to moan or compare and contrast rights / wrongs of suffering. Without pronouncing on any given situation, however, there is a need for society to get as close to the fullest possible and objective truth as it can. As Bloomfield points out, there is little or no hope of ever gaining the full truth of the whole situation or even in relation to specific incidents; too many vested interests in too many quarters as well as the passage of time to achieve that.

You are right in that sometimes I read a new subject or post and feel that it is interesting only to see it descend into a predictable rally of stereotypical view and counter-view. I no longer seek to understand, analyse or diagnose the psychological or emotional state of other posters and just get on with saying what I want to say. Sometimes, I manage to see even a small part of truth in what everyone has to say although I admit to the odd knee-jerk response myself; the only 'balance' I have is that I get equally irked by some people on both sides of the debate!!!

Dot/dash

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #488 on: April 15, 2019, 09:42:28 PM »
Good advice GandT.  But unfortunately the past is the comfort zone for some people while others just enjoy being a victim.  Northern Ireland is a special place because the troubles have made victimhood and the past synonymous.

If you live in the past you have dominion power over your own territory but you confine yourself in a cage which you build yourself i.e. your comfort zone.  This cage can be a place where aspirations fade and dreams die.  It can also prevent you from enjoying a more abundant life.

A mild example.... just look at the number of potentially interesting posts on this forum which rapidly descend into sectarian banter by posters too frightened to leave their comfort zones.

how is it possible for one to live in a comfort zone syri            if that zone is steeped in  barbaric history 


     ..     it makes no sense for someone to enjoy being such a victim         I cannot fathom this theory   


        I do feel the Troubles and other Controversial thread            is partly responsible for fanning this


on going bigotry            that is very much evident            in many posts             the anti British


comments are unbelievable        



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White dee

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #489 on: April 15, 2019, 09:52:51 PM »
how is it possible for one to live in a comfort zone syri            if that zone is steeped in  barbaric history 

     ..     it makes no sense for someone to enjoy being such a victim         I cannot fathom this theory   

        I do feel the Troubles and other Controversial thread            is partly responsible for fanning this

on going bigotry            that is very much evident            in many posts             the anti British

comments are unbelievable       


Emmm one Name comes to mind, Gerry Adams.

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Not everyone is true,,
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GandT

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #490 on: April 16, 2019, 01:44:23 PM »
A great read, GandT.
It is kind of connected to those, that would have us believe the troubles was started by a few bad men. 😉🤔
Integrated education solving all Our problems ?? Lol.
Working class Loyalists/Protestants would do better, at asking why the DUP protect the transfer test???
A test that discriminates socially disadvantaged young Protestants.
Which in turn has an negative effect on the rest of their lives.



Couldn't agree more. A woman from the Shankill put this very question to Sammy Wilson a few years back on a television programme. Sammy trotted out the old arguments that the transfer allows kids from working class backgrounds to 'get to grammar school'. He didn't give any information on how many of the poorest did not get there, how many were asked to leave before at GCSE, what the Free School Meals figures indicate about the differential between grammar and non-grammar schools in terms of socio-economic backgrounds and so on. The woman had pointed out that all the other parties who claimed to be socialist or represent working-class people were opposed to transfer at age 10-11; Sammy had no answer for that either. 

NI has some great schools - grammar and no-grammar. It boasts of its high attainment at the top ends of GCSE and A Level results and how many kids from poorer backgrounds get to 3rd level. It ignores what for me is one of the sources where Belfast - NI for that matter - should be embarrassed. Hypocritical shouting for integrated schools when both sectors [Catholic and State] allow a two-tier system of educational apartheid based on outmoded ideas of human intelligence and consistently ignoring that high attainment is bought at the cost of one of the longest tails of underachievement in Europe. There is also the point that many, many - possibly most - of the poorest working-class getting to university do so from non-grammar schools; certainly numerically and probably % wise as well.

But then we've always liked the idea of tuppence-ha'penny being able to look down on tuppence and the transfer test allows some to do that. Now, that is embarrassing!

BLOOMFIELD

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #491 on: April 17, 2019, 01:45:12 AM »
how is it possible for one to live in a comfort zone syri            if that zone is steeped in  barbaric history 

     ..  ( #1 )   it makes no sense for someone to enjoy being such a victim         I cannot fathom this theory   ( #1)


         (# 2 )         I do feel the Troubles and other Controversial thread            is partly responsible for fanning this

on going bigotry   (# 2 )   
    that is very much evident            in many posts             the anti British

comments are unbelievable       


( #1 ) Some people revel in " Oh , woe is us " it gives them something to live for.  ::)


( #2 ) " Troubles and other Controversial thread " is for people to give their opinions ( rightly or wrongly ) ,  and one has to request   
                 permission to partake, therefor if one is annoyed at the content ; one is also free to opt out.  ;)
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Billy Fish

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Re: EMBARRASED TO COME FROM BELFAST
« Reply #492 on: April 18, 2019, 08:28:53 PM »
Good advice GandT.  But unfortunately the past is the comfort zone for some people while others just enjoy being a victim.  Northern Ireland is a special place because the troubles have made victimhood and the past synonymous.

If you live in the past you have dominion power over your own territory but you confine yourself in a cage which you build yourself i.e. your comfort zone.  This cage can be a place where aspirations fade and dreams die.  It can also prevent you from enjoying a more abundant life.

A mild example.... just look at the number of potentially interesting posts on this forum which rapidly descend into sectarian banter by posters too frightened to leave their comfort zones.

Great post, nothing but the truth.  O0
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