Author Topic: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.  (Read 113182 times)

belle

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Re: Gay fascists V Ashers home bakery
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2014, 08:40:43 PM »
The worlds gone mad. I will never vote Sinn Fein again. On moral/religious issues, im more inclined to vote DUP. How can any PRACTICING CATHOLIC vote for a party (Sinn Fein), and in doing so, put at risk their eternal soul?
whats that to do with Ashers bakery? ???
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Dommo

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Re: Gay fascists V Ashers home bakery
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2014, 08:42:46 PM »
whats that to do with Ashers bakery? ???
i dunno but it's an interesting question.
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lcb10

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2014, 08:43:15 PM »

Would he say the same thing if a gay couple who ran a bakery were asked to decorate a cake with the words  "Gay Marriage is an abomination"?

What do you mean?

Of course - it's exactly, exactly the same.

The bakery in the news can choose not to make a cake celebrating Gay Marriage.

Any bakery ran by a gay couple (or anyone else) can choose not to make a cake saying "Gay Marriage is an abomination".

It's straightforward.

The choice of the service provided belongs to the service provider.

You can't force them to make something they don't want to make.

And, as I said in the more recent comment - that's not even got anything to do with discrimination or minority group issues. It's just about each service provider or shop choosing exactly WHAT they want to sell (rather than who they want to sell it to).

If a particular baker (or T-Shirt slogan maker or whatever) happens to feel he disagrees with people drinking alcohol, it's totally up to him to refuse the local beer group's request to make a cake filled with images of bottles of alcoholic drinks. He makes what he likes. It's his business, he makes and sells what he wants to - and certainly not what he doesn't want to.

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ADDED:

  SORRY toadstool999 - I thought you meant would I say the same thing if ...

My mistake - I see you meant - would Andrew Muir say the same thing if the bakery were owned by a gay couple and the message was against Gay Marriage.

Interesting. I wonder what he'd do. I guess he'd just be activist.

That's what GandT was just saying - many people who identify as homosexuals are now all about activism, rather than sense or true equality.

I wonder if a proper spectrum of equality is taught in schools now - that people who have to suffer inequality at times also are obliged to heed everyone else's equality. (My school time was really before the big equality issues today.)

GandT

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2014, 08:44:51 PM »
why should they serve whomever they want.
(Dommo)

Again, the issue is not about serving whomever they want or not.
It's about CHOOSING the service.

Here's an example: a cake is available with the same message, sold everyday, with the icing saying, "Celebrate Love", and the Queerspace folks came up to the bakery and asked for it, adding they want it for a Gay Marriage celebration they're having.
The bakery have sold this cake to everyone else who has asked for it for years.
But, that day, they say to the Queerspace people, "Naw, you're not gettin' it. Not for that kind of celebration."

I suppose that would indeed be discrimination, and illegal.

The point is that the bakery are able to pick and choose exactly what cakes they make. (But not by who they want to sell to.) They are an artisan and a trade. The way our country works is that provision of services is a civil venture - up to anyone who wants to be a shop or service provider to sell what they choose.

So - they choose what they sell, but not who they sell to. Because the latter can be discrimination, but the former is just normal in a civil, capitalist, non-totalitarian society.

Each sale is a contract, and it is based only on Agreement between the shop and the customer.

A business cannot be forced to do a service it doesn't want to do.

Whether the cake message is controversial or not, it doesn't matter - the business would not be forced to make a cake for this if it didn't want to.
Example: Someone asks a bakery to make a cake to celebrate the local climbing group tackling Everest. The baker hates climbing and lost her father to climbing, and thinks it is a reckless, wild, stupid way to act.

The baker never makes cakes about climbing, and refuses for the local climbing group.

That's fine, in our society. The service provider chooses as they see fit.

In our laws, that can never be questioned - it is the fundamental definition of how businesses operate. They sell what they want. They choose what they sell, but not who they sell to (unless you don't meet certain criteria they have, for example for a loan or account services.)

It is true that nowadays, people are using discrimination laws in the wrong way - and it can be used to challenge these freedoms of life, such as business freedoms.

We don't live in the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany (yet, quite). Businesses are just people who choose to sell items or services. They sell what they want. The day that the government forces businesses to sell what they don't want is the day we step into communism or fascism.

Excellent post. Precise in thought and very clear in illustration and exemplars. Also agree with Dommo that to campaign for this sort of may have its transient victories and popularity but that it can work in reverse and come back to haunt the campaigners.

flaxman

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2014, 09:11:05 PM »
What do you mean?

Of course - it's exactly, exactly the same.

The bakery in the news can choose not to make a cake celebrating Gay Marriage.

Any bakery ran by a gay couple (or anyone else) can choose not to make a cake saying "Gay Marriage is an abomination".

It's straightforward.

The choice of the service provided belongs to the service provider.

You can't force them to make something they don't want to make.

And, as I said in the more recent comment - that's not even got anything to do with discrimination or minority group issues. It's just about each service provider or shop choosing exactly WHAT they want to sell (rather than who they want to sell it to).

If a particular baker (or T-Shirt slogan maker or whatever) happens to feel he disagrees with people drinking alcohol, it's totally up to him to refuse the local beer group's request to make a cake filled with images of bottles of alcoholic drinks. He makes what he likes. It's his business, he makes and sells what he wants to - and certainly not what he doesn't want to.

---
---

ADDED:

  SORRY toadstool999 - I thought you meant would I say the same thing if ...

My mistake - I see you meant - would Andrew Muir say the same thing if the bakery were owned by a gay couple and the message was against Gay Marriage.

Interesting. I wonder what he'd do. I guess he'd just be activist.

That's what GandT was just saying - many people who identify as homosexuals are now all about activism, rather than sense or true equality.

I wonder if a proper spectrum of equality is taught in schools now - that people who have to suffer inequality at times also are obliged to heed everyone else's equality. (My school time was really before the big equality issues today.)
Another excellent post, as all have been on this topic , I wish Ashers bakery the very best as they where obviously targeted by a group of extremely nasty people. And huge praise for those in the gay community who have added there support to Ashers in this ridiculous complaint.

lcb10

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2014, 10:00:57 PM »
the only thing I disagree with is I don't think religion is relevant. There are lots  of gay Protestant churches and the UK has no official  religion. Yes I know about England and Scotland. But if most people in ni become Jews or Jains they still should  it have to bate out cakes that they object to.  No one should. People are not zombie slaves of the state.

Thanks for pointing out there is no official religion of the UK, only in England in Scotland. I forgotten that, actually, that churches were disestablished in Northern Ireland and Wales a long time ago. (I'm not Christian or religious).

You say there are gay Protestant churches. It's interesting with any Christian church, including RC, what they officially or non-officially say how homosexuality is in terms of their own vision of morality. Whether or not Romans II etc holds any or a lot of water nowadays. I don't think it's as hellfire and damnation as it once was, but I don't think it's changed too much either.

There are Christians of many Christian denominations or branches who say they believe their church says it is immoral in some way. Even if they don't "denounce" it, basically, a lot of what they say can only be construed to mean they don't accept it as a part of a moral way of living - that is homosexual acts, not thoughts or inclinations.

My point, slightly changed though the same in essence, is that, in a nation where the official Head of State, The Queen, is Defender of the Faith of a religion which at least tends more not to accept homosexuality as moral, how can a government Equality Commission charge a shop which complies with that view?

There may be a strange paradox - what Christian churches feel combined with the status of the Queen in the whole nation, coming from her Christian status in England and Scotland as Defender of the Faith, AGAINST - that the Queen granted Royal Assent to the legislation which any of the devolved Gay Marriage laws come from. And they are approved laws in this nation.

This is separate anyway to the main point I'd been making, the basic truth of civil living in a capitalist society where an artisan and tradesperson chooses what they want to make and sell (chooses the service, but not the customer).

Thankfully, that point makes everything simple anyway. Unless some momentous change is on the horizon ...

toadstool999

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2014, 10:20:44 PM »
A lot of people on here are angry and outraged that this business is being forced to do something that they don't believe in and don't want to do. I understand that, but let me be a devil's advocate for a minute.

If the bakery gets their way and are allowed to refuse to agree to the customer's request on religious grounds does that mean that a Protestant/Catholic/ Jewish business can refuse to do business with a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim etc. ?
Would it be ok to hang a sign saying "Whites Only"?

It's not as cut and dried as it first seems. 

icb10's post on service is great and makes it very clear.
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flaxman

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2014, 11:22:46 PM »
Are they refusing on religious grounds, have they stated that fact? Surely a private company reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone without need to explain. I remember pubs in Belfast had notices stating that they had the right to refuse service without the need to explain why. I am sure Ashers have served many people from many diverse sections of the community over the years without complaint. The crux of this particular case is that they where targeted by a tiny bunch of extremely nasty fascist activists determined to shove their twisted agenda down every ones throats, and the sad fact is the law is probably on their side.

AL CAPONE

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2014, 08:52:43 AM »
A lot of people on here are angry and outraged that this business is being forced to do something that they don't believe in and don't want to do. I understand that, but let me be a devil's advocate for a minute.

If the bakery gets their way and are allowed to refuse to agree to the customer's request on religious grounds does that mean that a Protestant/Catholic/ Jewish business can refuse to do business with a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim etc. ?
Would it be ok to hang a sign saying "Whites Only"?


It's not as cut and dried as it first seems. 

icb10's post on service is great and makes it very clear.

Spot on.
 

JackM

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2014, 12:47:35 PM »
IMO. A business or persons should have the final say, as to whether or not, they do or provide something, that is deeply offensive to their beliefs. Far too much of this mamby pamby stuff.   ::)
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stickleback

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2014, 01:23:43 PM »
A lot of people on here are angry and outraged that this business is being forced to do something that they don't believe in and don't want to do. I understand that, but let me be a devil's advocate for a minute.

If the bakery gets their way and are allowed to refuse to agree to the customer's request on religious grounds does that mean that a Protestant/Catholic/ Jewish business can refuse to do business with a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim etc. ?
Would it be ok to hang a sign saying "Whites Only"?

It's not as cut and dried as it first seems. 

    . apologies to Toadstool. My post is below :)

No-one would expect halal butchers to stock pork sausages. Why are Christians meant to produce and serve anything they don't agree with ? It really is as simple as that. Try walking into a halal butchers and asking for pork. You will be told: Sorry, we don't stock pork. It is against our religion.

Try forcing the muslims to start selling you pork sausages.

As someone who is non-religious, I am finding this drama quite bizarre. The only way to make any business successful is to understand your market. You don't make a business successful by trying to pander to every Tom, Dick and Harry. If gays want gay cakes then it is apparent to me that their is a gap in the market in Belfast, so let them open up their own gay bakery. If the demand is there, one thing is for sure: supply will follow.

jillyfred

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2014, 02:18:35 PM »
IMO. A business or persons should have the final say, as to whether or not, they do or provide something, that is deeply offensive to their beliefs. Far too much of this mamby pamby stuff.   ::)
=========

Agree JackM.

jilly

GandT

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2014, 04:47:35 PM »
A lot of people on here are angry and outraged that this business is being forced to do something that they don't believe in and don't want to do. I understand that, but let me be a devil's advocate for a minute.

If the bakery gets their way and are allowed to refuse to agree to the customer's request on religious grounds does that mean that a Protestant/Catholic/ Jewish business can refuse to do business with a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim etc. ?
Would it be ok to hang a sign saying "Whites Only"?

It's not as cut and dried as it first seems. 

icb10's post on service is great and makes it very clear.

No to your questions. However, this would be to refuse solely on the basis of a person's creed or colour. These customers were not refused on the basis of their religion, colour or their sexual orientation but on the basis of asking the bakery to write a particular notice. So, a parallel might be a customer [doesn't matter what religion or colour] going to a bakery [Falls or Shankill], asking them to bake a cake, the shop taking the order of a cake and then the customer requiring them to advertise on the cake any hot button issue to which the owners might very reasonably reject e.g. 'Extend Abortion Act to NI'. This is not a political slogan within the narrow run of our usual contentious issues; it is enshrined in UK law and my, in a limited form, even be enacted in NI. It is, however, a moral issues on which shop owners on the Falls and Shankill might have a clear conscientious objection. They have a perfect right to refuse just as some doctors have a perfect right to refuse to carry out abortions even where the civil law allows it. 

toadstool999

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2014, 05:18:22 PM »
=========

Agree JackM.

jilly

Are you really saying that you think it would be ok to hang signs on the door of your business saying things like "Whites Only", "No Irish need apply", "Restricted business, no Jews allowed" etc.?
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toadstool999

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Re: Ashers bakery, any thoughts.
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2014, 05:28:08 PM »
No to your questions. However, this would be to refuse solely on the basis of a person's creed or colour. These customers were not refused on the basis of their religion, colour or their sexual orientation but on the basis of asking the bakery to write a particular notice. So, a parallel might be a customer [doesn't matter what religion or colour] going to a bakery [Falls or Shankill], asking them to bake a cake, the shop taking the order of a cake and then the customer requiring them to advertise on the cake any hot button issue to which the owners might very reasonably reject e.g. 'Extend Abortion Act to NI'. This is not a political slogan within the narrow run of our usual contentious issues; it is enshrined in UK law and my, in a limited form, even be enacted in NI. It is, however, a moral issues on which shop owners on the Falls and Shankill might have a clear conscientious objection. They have a perfect right to refuse just as some doctors have a perfect right to refuse to carry out abortions even where the civil law allows it.

Absolutely right, but, anyone could claim that Blacks, Jews, Irish etc. are morally or religiously offensive to them and thus they have a legitimate conscientous objection to doing business with them.
I could be an Arab and as all Jews are automatically entitled to Israeli citizenship and I strongly oppose Israel's policy regarding Palestine, therefore I could refuse to do business with all Jews.
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