Author Topic: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road  (Read 6436 times)

CMcG

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2015, 02:06:49 PM »

So someone else, somewhere, is making the same assumption.
 

Have just realised, it's probably you. Gave me a laugh anyway.  :)
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KarenAcrossThePond

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2015, 03:42:23 PM »
Hello CMcG!!

Oh, my, this has given me such a good laugh, too!!!  :D [size=78%] Yes, I was quite busy yesterday ... so excited about all the information that you kindly sent my way, and I went and added information to find a grave!![/size]

I am going to try to explain what my conclusions are, as a result of all the info you provided me with yesterday, and a few other things that I discovered as a result of your information. (I hope that I can do this with some clarity, ha, ha!!)

1. The "John Hall" you mentioned from the 1901 census, who then lived at 51 Iris Street with his daughter, widow "Ann Jane Nelson" and 2 grandsons, "George and Robert Nelson" (this connects up in a short while, and I will refer to this John Hall as "John Hall Sr." from here on)

2. The Douger Cemetery/Lurgan headstone: Margaret Hall and Ellenor Hall, children of John Hall Sr. and Anne/Ann Hall (nee McShane), all 4 who are buried here. Mentioned also are their grandchildren, Mary and James Hall who died in infancy, and Lieutenant William Francis Hall who died in action in 1917. (Grandchildren Mary Hall, James Hall and Lieutenant William Francis Hall are all children of John Hall Jr., son of John Hall Sr. and Anne/Ann Hall)

3. I found GRONI and Ulster Historical Foundation birth/baptism records for 4 children of John Hall Sr. and Anne/Ann McShane: Margaret Hall 1848-1867, John Hall 1850-1946, Mary Hall 1852-? and Ellen (Ellenor) Hall 1854-1872.

3. John Hall Sr. and Anne/Ann Hall lived at 28 Hamilton Street, Belfast when Ann passed away on March 7, 1877, according to her GRONI record, as well as the 1877 BSD.

4. At PRONI I discovered the complete, handwritten will (I was happily shocked about this find!!) of Anne/Ann Hall, who passed away on March 7, 1877 and her will had been given on March 4, 1877.

In her will it says Anne Hall of Hamilton Street, Belfast, and amongst other things, she bequeaths the following:

-150 pounds to her son John Hall Jr. (I have added the Jr. just for clarity)
-30 pounds to her daughter "Minnie" (query here: Could "Minnie" be John Hall Sr.'s and Ann's daughter Mary Hall?)
-30 pounds to daughter Sarah Loughlan
-30 pounds to Rev. Geoffrey Breman of St. Malachy's Church
-something to her grandchildren, the children of her daughter Anne Jane Nelson
-she requests burial with her 2 pre-deceased children in the Lurgan grave
-5 pounds to her sister Sarah McShane (a McShane connection here!)
-and to "Minnie" she also leaves her feather bed and bedding (so much of the info I have received from you and have discovered really touches me)

5. At the Ulster Historical Foundation, I found a marriage record for Ann Jane Hall of Lurgan (father John Hall a linen lapper) who married Robert Nelson (a linen lapper) in a Banbridge Civil Ceremony on September 20, 1864.

6. With all the the latter information combined, I have come to the conclusion that these are all the same family, who connect to my great-grandfather John Hall Jr., born 1850, died 1946.

7. I am a bit stuck, though, and here is why:

Ann Hall's will mentions daughter "Minnie" ... could "Minnie" possibly be Mary Hall?

Ann Hall's will mentions daughter "Sarah Loughlan" ... Have searched GRONI and UHF and cannot find a birth record for a Sara/Sarah born to John Hall Sr. and Ann Hall (nee McShane)

I am also unable to find a birth/baptism record at GRONI or UHF for Ann (Anne) Jane Hall, daughter of John Hall Sr. and Ann Hall (nee McShane), even though Ann Jane's marriage certificate states father John Hall, linen lapper.

So, other than the 3 latter questions, I think that everything you have provided me with fits!!!!! And I will keep at the searching for those elusive birth records, using various combinations of names/spelling/mistaken spelling and some magic too!

Also, your suggestion for adding all the residences to John Hall Jr. was fantastic ... so far I have recorded more than 12 residences for him, going by the GRONI records and BSDs for him and all of his family. I have done so with the residences of each person in my family tree now!

Just wanted to pass all this info along to you so you could see what your exceptional sleuthing skills have accomplished, CMcG! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

I hope that what I have laid out here is clear ... wish I could have been more concise ... please let me know what you think!

With my warm regards,
Karen


CMcG

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2015, 06:29:30 AM »
The will is an absolute gem in that it ties everything  together, including the McShane connection and the 1901 census return with Ann Jane Nelson and John Hall senior. The absolute smoking gun for me would have been if Anne had mentioned daughter in law Catherine McCabe Hall in it, but that is being greedy. Interesting that husband John Hall senior received nothing, that's another story!

Minnie is indeed Mary, a very common a.k.a. here in Ireland for the period.

I couldn't find baptisms for Ann Jane and Sarah, but given all the circumstantial evidence, there can be little doubt about them.  In her marriage to Edward Loughlin in St. Malachy's in 1873, Sarah's address is 26 Hamilton Street and her father is described as John Hall, a warehouseman.

I think you've tied this all together very well.  Notwithstanding the absence of smoking gun to link John & Anne (McShane) Hall to the John Hall who married Catherine McCabe, the confidence level should be high.
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KarenAcrossThePond

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2015, 08:32:46 PM »
Hi CMcG!

It's GREAT to hear your opinion about all of this ... thank you so much for taking the time to let me know your thoughts. It was such exciting information to have come across!

Thank you, too, for letting me know about Sarah and Edward Loughlin's marriage ... I hadn't checked for that record yet, but will do so as soon as I finish writing this.

You mention that the absolute smoking gun would have been if Anne had mentioned daughter-in-law Catherine McCabe Hall in it, but I'm wondering if perhaps Anne's son, John Hall Jr., hadn't met Catherine McCabe yet? John Jr. and Catherine McCabe weren't married until October 1878, and Anne Hall passed away in March 1877. So many puzzles to fit together, right?!

But most definitely the biggest tie between John Hall Sr. and Anne to being the John Hall, their son, as the John Hall that I know is my Great-Grandfather, is because that John Hall (Jr.) and his wife Catherine McCabe had the three children that are mentioned as John Hall Sr. and Anne's grandchildren on the Douger Cemetery/Lurgan headstone: Mary Hall and James Hall, who died in infancy, and Lieutenant William Francis Hall, who was killed in action in Passchendale in 1917 -- all three are definitely the children of John Hall (Jr.) and Catherine McCabe Hall, therefore the grandchildren of John Hall Sr. and Anne McShane Hall.

If it hadn't been for your tremendous help, and so much previous help from Fadge, I would never have gotten here ... I'm so very, very grateful!!

Off to find Sarah and Edward Laughlin's marriage record now  :)

My very best to you,
Karen


Helena1

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2020, 09:25:18 AM »
Think I might have information that might help you.

Helena1

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2020, 05:25:37 PM »
Think I might have information that might help you.
. Interesting addition to the Hall- Nelson connection which came up in other replies. The Ann Jane Nelson was the one in the cencus in 1901 but she died on the          22 of April 1909 and was the sister to John Nelson who's father was also John who was born in 1922 in Lurgan. Ann Jane was my Great grandmother and married my Great grandfather Robert Nelson in Banbridge on 1964. ROBERT  died 6th May 1884 aged 45, Ann Jane was 63 when she died in the City Hospital. They had 8 children with 2 dying in infancy. William, Robert,Margaret, John, Annie, David who was my Grandfather and George and Robert. All born between 1865 and 1884.

ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2020, 10:46:53 AM »
Hi All, Iíve put together most of Ann Janes sons (Robert - Belfast) lineage, and got to this stage today.

Anyone with any further info would be appreciated. Thanks


ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2020, 11:02:10 AM »
I transcribed a lot of those records for Ulster Historical, and they were almost illegible sometimes, so I would question spelling like that.

While there may not be a civil record for the marriage of John Hall and Catherine McCabe (I've come across this before), I strongly suspect the following church record has simply been mistranscribed.

The Ulster Historical Foundation has a marriage record for a John Ball and Catherine McCabe, it took place on 23 October 1878 in St. Malachy's RC Church Belfast, Edmund Hassett carried out the service, the witnesses were John Close and Ann Briggs.

Unfortunately that is all the record shows, no other details.

ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2020, 12:12:39 PM »
Hey Helena,

Iíve put together you great grandads brothers tree, Roberts

How far back have you managed to get after this?

. Interesting addition to the Hall- Nelson connection which came up in other replies. The Ann Jane Nelson was the one in the cencus in 1901 but she died on the          22 of April 1909 and was the sister to John Nelson who's father was also John who was born in 1922 in Lurgan. Ann Jane was my Great grandmother and married my Great grandfather Robert Nelson in Banbridge on 1964. ROBERT  died 6th May 1884 aged 45, Ann Jane was 63 when she died in the City Hospital. They had 8 children with 2 dying in infancy. William, Robert,Margaret, John, Annie, David who was my Grandfather and George and Robert. All born between 1865 and 1884.

Helena1

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2020, 12:42:05 PM »
Hi ChrisN, what info did you come across.

ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2020, 01:35:35 PM »

I have an extensive tree from there down and it should be easier to go further back with this thread info, but Iíve just done it this weekend, so have to run it by the family for errors first.

Iíve added everything from this thread, which seems to fit with info I was given from my relatives previously.

When itís proofed, Iíll use the excel to generate a tree somehow, and post it. What genealogy site do you recommend I post it on?

Hi ChrisN, what info did you come across.

ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2020, 01:43:43 PM »
I havenít populated the youngest generations but thatís easy when I have a chance, and I also know a few people from each of the offshoots, so Iíll run it by them too. Iím expecting to have a few hundred names populated by next week

 
Hi ChrisN, what info did you come across.

Helena1

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2020, 02:21:29 PM »
I just noticed that in my initial letter I thought I had edited the marriage date of Robert Nelson and Ann Jane Hall which was 1864 and not 1964 in Banbridge. Robert's father was also Robert and was a Farmer in Tullylish. I believe he rented land of a Benjamin Dickson along with a relative David. I haven't found his wife at that time as its before 1864 or other relatives. So looking forward to see if they are connected. I know they were Presbyterian but little else.

ChrisN

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Re: HALL Family, John Hall 1850-1946, Cliftonville Road
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2020, 07:08:57 AM »
I notice in the public records there was an apprentice sold to a Linen Manufacturer for a £100 in 1851. Could this explain the change in religion?

It seems to match up with the Handkerchief Manufacturer career

I just noticed that in my initial letter I thought I had edited the marriage date of Robert Nelson and Ann Jane Hall which was 1864 and not 1964 in Banbridge. Robert's father was also Robert and was a Farmer in Tullylish. I believe he rented land of a Benjamin Dickson along with a relative David. I haven't found his wife at that time as its before 1864 or other relatives. So looking forward to see if they are connected. I know they were Presbyterian but little else.