Author Topic: Help please with Charles McGRATH  (Read 3666 times)

17124

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Help please with Charles McGRATH
« on: April 22, 2015, 05:40:16 PM »
 When Charles, a riveter, married at St.Patricks RC church Belfast in 1881 aged 24, the church marriage record lists his father as Daniel, farmer, deceased & mother as Sarah.  A note on the record states that his parents were from Tyrone.  Since 1881 a number of BSD list Charles as head of household at 11 Artillery St up until 1890.  He had three children and Daniel the eldest, remembered he was about 10yrs old when his father died.  The children’s birth records gave the father’s occupation as (1881) riveter, (1883) riveter, (1886) sailor.  The middle child died in 1885 and his death cert gives his father’s occupation as “soldier”.  This throws up more questions than answers
His wife appears to have re-married as in 1893 she gave birth to the first of 5 more children although I cannot find a marriage cert to support this.
As I cannot find any record of his death, burial nor anything prior to 1881 to connect him to a Daniel & Sarah of Tyrone or any siblings, I would really appreciate fresh eyes to look at this, as its entirely possible that I have missed something vital.  I have a copy of his marriage & childrens' birth records mentioned above. 
 Many thanks for reading 17124[/font]

JimG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 08:56:17 AM »
     Depending where Sarah died, if Belfast then the newly expected index to Millfield cemetery might list her. Is there any list of Charles birth/baptism including location. If she was still living in Tyrone then the burials church records in Arboe or Clonoe might be worth searching if they were kept and survived, see below
 
Could Daniel have left his Tyrone farm and joined the army. I tried Chelsea pensioners
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/world-records/british-army-service-records-1760-1915?firstname=daniel%20&firstname_variants=true&lastname=mcgrath 
and there are some but I couldn’t identify your man as I didnt know where some places are in Ireland
 
As regards him being a farmer my bets are on him being one of these next two.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation
MCGRATH       DANIEL          TYRONE         ARBOE
Further Detailed as Drumenny{Stewart} 1859 map ref 25A,B
MCGRATH       DANIEL          TYRONE         CLONOE
Further Detailed as Aughamullan 1860 map ref 13
 
So Sarah the widow conceivably might have been living in a military sounding Artillery Street I looked up 1877 BSD, there appear to be be missing entries between
41. Kelly, Hugh, ship carpenter
 ...
Carntall Street intersects
 ...
Carnmoney Street intersects
 ...
Pinkerton Street intersects

94. Wilson, Robert, car owner
I then checked PRONI street directories and found the same sequence so there are no missing entries but the enumerator might have left them out. i wonder if e.g. the linenhall library has yearly directories in addition to Mary Lennon and PRONI[ very likely I think]
I also noticed there are 3 people described as pensioners living in the Street that description is only used by certain people in those days. Did Charles inherit the house?
 
I looked again for Sarah a widow and found in the same directory1877
Lincoln Street
Off Leeson Street
27. McGrath, Sarah but this lady is not described as a widow. 
 
So lets hope you get numerous other more revealing replies JimG
 

sam barry

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 10:36:29 AM »
Here are a few burials of "McGrath's"  in County Tyrone, just in case it might assist your research ?

 McGRATH   Clonoe RC   Clonoe   Magheramulkenny   Tyrone
Gravestone Inscription   Erected by McGrath brothers to the memory of Margret McGrath their mother who died 7th February 1856 aged 47 years, also James McGrath their father who died 1st May 1876 aged 84 years, also James McGrath their brother who died 3rd November 1866 aged 21 years, Thomas McGrath who died December 21st 1906 aged 77 years, Constantine McGrath who died 3rd August 1857 aged 84 years, Mary McGrath who died 24th July 1962 aged 77 years; her daughter-in-law Mary McGrath who died 2nd July 1977 aged 47 years.

McGRATH   Clonoe RC   Clonoe   Magheramulkenny   Tyrone
Gravestone Inscription   In memory of Mary McGrath, Meenagh, who died 25th April 1894 aged 63 years, Peter McGrath her husband who died 29th September 1896 aged 72 years, Alice McGrath their daughter who died 10th October 1918, Joseph McGrath their son who died 28th September 1931.

McGRATH   Clonoe RC   Clonoe   Magheramulkenny   Tyrone
Gravestone Inscription   IHS. Erected to the memory of Daniel McGrath of Aughamullin who departed this life December the 11th 1844 aged 74 years, also his son John who departed this life 29th February 1844 aged 28 years.

McGRATH   Brockagh RC   Clonoe   Magheralamfield   Tyrone
Gravestone Inscription   IHS. Erected by Mary McGrath of Derryadd in memory of her beloved husband Peter McGrath who died 12th April 1891 aged 64 years. Also her son Joseph McGrath who died 3rd August 1866 aged 16 years.

McGRATH   Clonoe CI   Clonoe   Killary Glebe   Tyrone
Gravestone Inscription   Here lyeth ye body of Felix McGrath who departed this life May ye 24th 1756 aged 49 years.


CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 01:43:56 PM »

When Charles, a riveter, married at St.Patricks RC church Belfast in 1881 aged 24, the church marriage record lists his father as Daniel, farmer, deceased & mother as Sarah.  A note on the record states that his parents were from Tyrone.


Hi, I've looked at a transcription of the church marriage and there is neither mention of mother being Sarah nor of parents being from Tyrone, am I maybe looking at the wrong thing? 

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CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 02:18:54 PM »

(1) He had three children and Daniel the eldest, remembered he was about 10yrs old when his father died.

(2) His wife appears to have re-married as in 1893 she gave birth to the first of 5 more children although I cannot find a marriage cert to support this.


Sorry, just trying to get a few more details right in my head so I can understand:

(1) Daniel remembering his father dying when he was 10, where did this come from, is it a personal reminiscence to you or an old letter or something dating back to the 1970s or before?

(2) His wife appearing to have remarried - what is this based on, grateful for any further information.
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17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 02:22:54 PM »
 JimG
 
My  thoughts:  The fact that his church marriage records his parents from Tyrone & father deceased suggests to me that the family were not in Belfast, (obviously not conclusive) but I have always had a question as to how Charles, the son of a farmer from Tyrone, became a riveter in Belfast.  As far as I am aware a riveter would have had some training, perhaps he moved to stay with family?
 
His address given on his marriage record is 18 Michael St.  1880 BSD shows:  Wm Kavanagh, caretaker  so no clues there as suggests he’s in lodgings.  11 Artillery Street, was occupied by his wife’s family from 1863 up until her marriage to Charles.  Although there were ex soldiers who lived in Artillery St, non military families also lived there.
 
As none of the above directed me to any links, I searched the griffiths valuation records & like you came up with four Daniels, the two you mention & one from MAGHERAMULKENNY, the other MEENAGH, both these Townlands are in the Parish of Clonoe.  I searched for marriages of Daniel’s to Sarah’s & the only one I could find was to a SARA O’Neill in Aughamullan but no marriage record available.  There are however church baptism  records for four children dating from 1846 – John,  1849 – Anne,  1852 – Mary  and 1856 - Daniel  - no mention of a Charles (marriage record gives age 24 in 1881 – so birth c 1856/7).  I did find a Charles born 1839 in Aughamullan to Charles McGrath & Alice Grimes and wondered whether this Charles (snr) was a brother to Daniel? 
 
Returning to BSD’s -  in 1887, 11 Artillery St gives householder to be Daniel M’GRATH  seaman, then in 1890 Charles is listed again.  This led me to wondering whether this is the Daniel born to Daniel & Sara in Aughamullan and the possibility that he is Charles’ brother?   To conclude on the BSD’s if Charles is still listed in BSD for 1889 (published 1890) and his wife, Mrs McGrath was recorded in 1891 (published 1892) then the likelihood is he has died somewhere between these years. (she starts another family in 1893) 
 
With regard to Charles’ children, his given occupation on records also throw up some anomalies.  In particular the middle child’s birth says riveter but when he died 18mths later, Charles is described as a soldier, but then the last child born in 1886, he’s descried as a sailor???  I haven’t found any army records that would fit this case, including Chelsea Pensioners.  I hadn’t considered his father as having left the farm & joining the army, however, I think it unlikely that he would have been described as a farmer in 1881 if he had been in the army (I could of course be wrong).
 
sam barry, has found the same headstones/records that I did in Clonoe, but again, no clues.
 
So, the questions remain, is there any connection to Daniel & Sara of Aughamullan? Where, when & how did he die? & where is he buried?
 
CMcG, the marriage was on 27/09/1881.  here is what I have taken from the record.
 
Comment REV H MAJORIAN MARRIED IN ST PATRICKS MGR FATHERS OF BRIDE AND GROOM DECEASED.             
 Comment DISP REV J HAMILL REV H MAGORIAN œ1 0 0 MGR HUSBAND'S PARENTS FROM CO TYRONE.[/font]

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 02:28:13 PM »
 CMcG,  Daniel born in 1881 told his own children that he remembered that he was about 10 when his father Charles died
 
 Charles’ wife (presumed a widow) went on to have 5 more children starting in 1893 with another man and were together until their deaths in 1922. 
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17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 01:50:34 AM »
CMcG, apologise I have taken so long to get back to you re the transcriptions, only its taken me a while to find the two I now refer to.

As far as I can remember, I obtained two transcription from  Ancestryireland, one says civil marriages & the other appears to be the church.

The civil record states the following in the comments field:   REV H MAJORIAN MARRIED IN ST PATRICKS MGR FATHERS OF BRIDE AND GROOM DECEASED.  Witnesses  Patrick CALVIN  and Helen McCLUGH

[/font]
[/i]The church record states[/font] Husband Mother Firstname SARAH [/font][/i][/font](its also gives first name of bride's mother) [/font]and in the comments field [/font]DISP REV J HAMILL REV H MAGORIAN œ1 0 0 MGR HUSBAND'S PARENTS FROM CO TYRONE. [/font][/i][/font]  Witnesses  Patrick NOLAN and Margaret McCULLOUGH

The other thing about these transcriptions that has always puzzled me are the names of the witnesses which differ, even I can't translate Helen to make Margaret!  The GRONI record of their names aren't all that helpful either.

I hope this helps to explain why you couldn't see the  details on the church transcription.  All help with this is certainly appreciated.  17124


CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 06:33:39 AM »

... To conclude on the BSD’s if Charles is still listed in BSD for 1889 (published 1890) and his wife, Mrs McGrath was recorded in 1891 (published 1892) then the likelihood is he has died somewhere between these years. (she starts another family in 1893) 


Before having children with William Spallen, Ellen Jane McAteer had a illegitimate son Ambose McAteer baptised in St. Patrick's, Belfast, on 20 August 1889, the address was 11 Artillery Street.

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CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 02:34:19 PM »
Sorry, but I'm struggling on this.  Further to my previous post, there is a civil birth record for an Ambrose Dornan (GRONI online has it as Dorman) born 20 August 1889 and registered 21 September 1889, the address was 11 Artillery Street, the father was Thomas Dornan, a smith by trade, and the mother was Ellen Jane McAteer.

Based on this birth date and that for Sarah Mary/Mary Sarah McGrath born on 28 September 1886 (and no other scenarios considered at this point), my best guess is that Charles McGrath left the scene somewhere between the end of 1885 and the end of 1888.  And by left the scene, I mean I don't know if he died or whatever.
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17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 02:41:20 PM »
Heavens CMcG, that piece of news certainly woke me up!  I had never even considered looking for any illegitimate children and this has certainly stirred the muddy waters even more.  I can't see a birth/death/marriage registered with GRONI for Ambrose McAteer, I wonder why?  Could he have been put up to the church for immediate adoption, name changed and then the birth was registered?  Dug around in census, can't find him under that name.   

further to above... i was just compiling the above when I spotted your last post.  will go & take look at that now & I'll get back to you.. the plot thickens  ???

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 02:49:00 AM »
 Firstly CMcG, I’m perplexed how you concluded to search for the name Dornan (Dorman) on the GRONI site to find the birth cert?

I now believe this child is likely to be the catalyst for the disappearance of Charles, but now I am left with how to make the connection to Thomas Dornan,  There is the  head of family, Edward who lived several doors up in Artillery Street but there is no trace of a Thomas in census? 
 
Ambrose appears to be the third male to be unaccounted for in this woman's lifetime, that I now know of!

CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 04:03:31 AM »

 Firstly CMcG, I’m perplexed how you concluded to search for the name Dornan (Dorman) on the GRONI site to find the birth cert?


I used a different website. First I found the Ambrose McAteer baptism, later I searched again on Ambrose (not that common a name) with wildcards on surname and mother's name ellen jane mcateer, when another 1889 record appeared under Dornan, I then cross checked against GRONI online.
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CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 06:17:55 AM »
"... but now I am left with how to make the connection to Thomas Dornan,  There is the  head of family, Edward who lived several doors up in Artillery Street but there is no trace of a Thomas in census?" 

You might never find out what happened.  In the absence of finding a death record (yet) for Charles McGrath in or around late 1885-1888, maybe he just walked out of her life (he had access to boats) and she found herself alone raising the children.  In the absence of finding a marriage record (yet) for William Spallen and Ellen Jane McAteer McGrath, the "walk out" scenario would support why they possibly did not marry. All pure speculation of course.

Here's another possible scenario. In 1888, had you walked the 20 yards from 11 Artillery Street onto North Queen Street, turned right and walked 30 yards until turning left and walking 100 yards down Henry Street, you would have come to Isabella Street. On 16 November 1888, a 53 year old widower Thomas Dornan died of a heart attack at 22 Isabella Street.  OK, the age is slightly more than expected and he is listed as labourer, but the full name isn't that common, he was widowed, he was under 200 yards away, and the arithmetic on the date of his death and the birth of Ambrose Dornan makes parentage  possible. Speculative, but not without circumstantial support.

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17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2015, 01:47:43 AM »
 CMcG, thank you for the wildcard tip, I hadn’t realised that the records could be searched in that way, but glad I asked as I found other interesting revelations!
 
I had more or less come to the same conclusion re Charle’s likelihood of “walking out”  and you are right, until I can find that elusive death record, I shall probably never know.  Thomas/Ambrose may eventually lead to something.
 
I wonder whether you could now spare the time to help try and find his father & mother (Daniel & Sarah) in Tyrone?  All I have as a starting point are the details contained within the 1881 marriage records which isn’t a lot I know, but as always, any help is gratefully received.
 
 Regards [/font]17124