Author Topic: Help please with Charles McGRATH  (Read 3667 times)

CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2015, 05:12:39 AM »

I wonder whether you could now spare the time to help try and find his father & mother (Daniel & Sarah) in Tyrone?  All I have as a starting point are the details contained within the 1881 marriage records which isn’t a lot I know, but as always, any help is gratefully received.


I'm arriving at the same inconclusive generalities as you are... Clonoe, Aughamullan, lots of Daniels and Charles in that general area in the McGrath forenaming pattern, and Sara O'Neill the only potential candidate for a mother so far. But nothing concrete and specific to tie in Charles McGrath who married Ellen Jane McAteer.

In considering the possibility that Charles and Ellen Jane might just have separated and that Charles might turn up again in records leading a separate life, I'm struggling to resolve this Charles McGrath in the 1911 census (albeit the age is slightly higher):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Mountjoy/Aughamullan/865767/

By resolve, I mean that I can't yet see the marriage to Mary that apparently took place 8 years previously and I can't yet find that same Charles in the 1901 census to work forward from.  There is a PRONI will calendar index entry showing a Charles McGrath of Aughamullan who died  in 1929, but it doesn't throw any more light on the matter.

Have you eliminated him?
If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2015, 01:05:10 AM »
 [/font]
sam barry, many thanks for the headstone inscriptions,  [/font]they may help to make sense of some of the family members … once I’ve sorted them out!

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2015, 01:08:30 AM »
 CMcG,  Looks like we are thinking alike.  I have now logged all McGrath’s listed on Will Callender for both available and non available images.  I have also  listed all marriages and births for all McGrath’s from Clonoe and surrounding townlands using information I have previously gleaned, in the hope I might find some links to connect the families together.
 
In doing this exercise yesterday, I too had found the will entry for Charles in 1929 and found the intriguing entry in 1911 census.  The same “what if” thought occurred to me.  I found the marriage record on GRONI, imagine my shock when it revealed that he had married Mary McATEER, spinster, in Newry on 19 April 1900!!  He is recorded as a bachelor, father Patrick and address as what appears to be Greive, but more likely Creeve, occupation, farmer and hers High St. Newry, father Michael, farmer so not the same father details as Ellen Jane – phew

There was a Charles born 12/06/1864 to Patrick & Sarah Weaney from Dernagh, Meenah.  I have no other records to indicate a Charles born to any other Patrick.  The Wills calender records a Patrick McGrath of Aughamullan (no image) died in 1919.
 
Like you, I too couldn’t find him/them in 1901 census, so where was he?  I am not ruling out that this could be the Charles I am searching for as if he did leave Ellen Jane and later remarried, who would be any the wiser if he were to give false details in order to hide his previous life?   (all supposition and no facts to support it, I know, but …).   Then there is the question of him farming in Aughamullan.  If he was farming there in 1900 I would expect to find him and his new wife in the 1901 census, so what was he doing in 1900 and how did he meet Mary? 

We now at least know that the Charles on the Wills Calender for 1929 is the same Charles in the 1911 census.  I checked GRONI and he died aged 79 and his wife Mary was present. 

We also now know that both my Charles & the 1911 Charles were missing from the 1901 census  & so to eliminate the 1911 Charles we would need to find out where he or he & Mary were for that census.  Where would a farmer go to, certainly not on a holiday… unless of course he is my Charles & he hasn’t returned to farming until after the census??
Another avenue to consider for my Charles’s disappearance … could he. on leaving Ellen Jane, gone to work on ships as crew or even leave Ireland for USA/Canada?

 I hope some of the above makes sense and that you may find something in here that helps to answer  some of these questions.  Your help, as is your valuable time, is very much appreciated. 17124

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 02:09:15 AM »
CMcG, just following up the 1889 incident,  have you seen the death cert (2nd April 1896 - aged 34yrs) for Thomas Dornan' son Philip who was present at Thomas's death .. would you agree a more likely candidate?  I think E.J was born c1860.

CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 02:44:50 AM »

CMcG, just following up the 1889 incident,  have you seen the death cert (2nd April 1896 - aged 34yrs) for Thomas Dornan' son Philip who was present at Thomas's death .. would you agree a more likely candidate?  I think E.J was born c1860.


I can't understand why Ellen Jane would have registered the name of the father of Ambrose Dornan as Thomas Dornan, if it was actually his son Philip.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2015, 01:53:53 AM »
CMcG,  yet another theory to run past you

Based on the information available, IF Charles’ parents were from Aughamullan, returning to the Valuation Records 1860 and onward seemed the logical place to establish whether Daniel did pass away as Charles stated at his marriage and therefore determine if any other Charles existed in the Townland,  ie, the 1911 Charles. 

The following links are for ease of reference but recommend each set should be viewed : http://applications.proni.gov.uk/dcal_proni_val12b/SearchResults.aspx  VAL/12/B/38/23A   VAL/12/B/38/23B   VAL/12/B/38/2C   VAL/12/B/38/23D   VAL/12/B/38/23E        VAL/12/B/38/23F 

Daniel was recorded up to and including the 1881 records (nbr 13) but from 1882 the land changed hands several times and appears the house remained with the occupant .. I am assuming Sarah the wife.  There is a strong cluster of McGrath’s at this time which, I suspect, are family members and at a time when the next generation take over the running of the land.  The references 46a & b, 66 and particularly 65 are in my opinion significant as the names James, Mary & Anne (all feature as three of the 4 children known to be born to Daniel & Sarah).  1897 – 1911 records another re-shuffle.  Sarah was recorded at nbr 46a (previously Mary & James … perhaps Mary married or died?).  The most interesting surprise is the occupant of Nbr 65 … Charles!   

Not one for conspiracy theories… but, his presence in the fold presents a powerful argument that there is no existence of any other Charles during these periods, that this is the same Charles who married Mary McAteer in 1900, who cannot be found in 1901 census and may well be my Charles returning home. I accept in the absence of any actual evidence (yet), this wouldn’t stand up in court. 

Your thoughts as always very much appreciated Many thanks again  17124   

CMcG

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2015, 04:39:50 AM »
I agree, Aughamullan Charles appearing out of thin air in 1911 is slightly mysterious.

The marriage you found for Charles gives rise to its own questions, eg. what was he doing in Newry and why is his father cited as Patrick? If you hadn't have found a marriage I would have made the same hypothesis as for Ellen Jane McAteer McGrath not marrying William Spallen, ie. there is no marriage since any marriage would be bigamous if the marriage between Charles McGrath and Ellen Jane McAteer wasn't legally dissolved. 
If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2015, 02:26:37 AM »
 I have now established that the only other Daniel in Tyrone  from the Griffiths Valuation was in (Arboe)  he was married to an Alice, (1851 census remnants) so that only leaves the one Daniel: from Aughamullan. 
 
The 1911 Charles declares he is the son of  Patrick & the only parents I can find to the birth of a Charles, father named Patrick are of a Patrick McGrath & Alice Grimes …but his age doesn’t tally with that of the 1911 census .. to be fair neither does my Charles based on his age in 1881 marriage cert. 
 
There are two other Daniels’ in Tyrone .. both surnames MAGRATH … one in MAGHERAMULKENNY and the other in MEENAGH, both in the parish of Clonoe. The question is:  are either of these married to  Sara/Sarah  and did either of these unions have a child named Charles?  Not readily available to search online… so…… this takes me back to Aughamullan and no baptism record for a Charles available  …
 
Did struggle to find any of the baptism transcriptions for Daniel & Sara (Aughamullan) issue but did eventually find John (Danl & Sara’s first born 1846 and confirmed byRC Parish Priest) .. ..under Jno & father DAVID ??  at rootsireland …dates  matched those verified by Parish Priest (possible transcription error)
 
Left with the same questions .. Where is the baptismal record of my Charles if he is indeed the child of Daniel & Sara of Aughamullan, what happened to my Belfast Charles from 1885 – death, where is death record and who is the Charles in 1911 census ,
 
 Surely, I’m missing something in this puzzle ?  [/font]More in depth help needed  .please

KathleenMc

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2020, 03:49:24 PM »
Hello  - I sorry I am late to this topic but I have just found Charles McGrath in my tree - Son of Ellen and ?  - from reading your threads - ( Maasacre at Arnon St) I may be a descendant of Ellen & Charles McGrath -
Please feel free to PM me if of interest or if you can help me go back further than Charles - I too, seem to be stuggling with him!

Thanks

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 12:47:20 PM »
Hi KathleenMc, sorry I for the late resply.    I have sent you a PM but I don't think you can receive/send PM's until you have posted three times so just respond to this & then post a further message to activate your PM's.
I'm looking forward to hearing from you soon.


KathleenMc

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2020, 05:12:32 PM »
Hi
Thank you!  I am replying in the hope of activating my pm's! - I have done a bot more digging but would love to know if I am digging in the right places!

 :)

KathleenMc

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2020, 05:13:33 PM »
really excited t hear more about Charles!

17124

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Re: Help please with Charles McGRATH
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 08:15:06 PM »
Hi Kathleen Mc  I have sent you a PM