Author Topic: Internees 1938-1946  (Read 7307 times)

pflanagan132

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Internees 1938-1946
« on: July 18, 2017, 07:34:11 PM »
Hi folks. I am working as a researcher for author Kathleen Hegarty Thorne on Volume 3 of a trilogy on Irish history. This Volume will contain a listing of republicans interned 1938-1946 in England, Northern Ireland and the Curragh. We are confident that we he have the majority of the guys interned in England and the Curragh, but but Northern Ireland is proving to be a much greater challenge.

I believe there is an autograph book signed by 140 men on the prison ship Al Radwah in 1940. I would really appreciate if anybody could provide me with their names. Also, is there any institution which holds a listing of all those interned during that period.

I am an OAP living in Co. Wexford and would be unable to travel to Belfast to do searches.

In anticipation of any assistance, many thanks. Patrick Flanagan.

Bigali

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 08:18:43 PM »
You could try the RUC/PSNI Police museum  and Police Historical Society at Police Headquarters , Knock, Belfast .

Telephone 02890 650222 and ask to be put through to the museum and /or historical society , if they can't help they may be able to point you in the right direction .

Good luck.
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The courageous deeds and sacrifices of the RUC and UDR must never be airbrushed from history .

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 04:14:00 AM »
The Northern Ireland Police Museum also has an email address      [email protected]

https://www.psni.police.uk/inside-psni/our-history/police-museum/#

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2017, 06:17:07 AM »
Your WW2 ship is HMS Al Rawdah,... note the spelling,... which was moored in 1940 for five months off Killyleagh in Strangford Lough, between Killyleagh and Portaferry,... after which the prisoners were moved to both Londonderry/Derry or to Crumlin Road Jail in Belfast, because the ship was over crowded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Al_Rawdah_(1911)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killyleagh

https://tinyurl.com/y7cdquu9

http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13641.0

http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=3405

When the picture on the link below opens, left click on it to enlarge it, and right click on it to download and save it.

http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo2/doylefamilyusa/HPIM0875.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Authorities_(Special_Powers)_Act_(Northern_Ireland)_1922

https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Shortarticlesandencyclopaediaentries/Encyclopaedia/LengthyEntries/CivilAuthority/

       ***
http://www.ww2ni.com/countydownpart4.htm

HMS Al Rawdah

http://mediaprocessor.websimages.com/width/930/crop/0,0,930x534/www.ww2ni.com/al%20rawdah.jpg

http://historyhubulster.co.uk/royal-navy-world-war-ii/

https://tinyurl.com/yaopj584

       ***
https://saoirse32.wordpress.com/2006/02/05/the-ira-prisoners-under-lough-and-key-2/

"05 February 2006"  Extracts from that article...

"The ship was used in the autumn of 1940 to house between 140 and 200 republican detainees, rounded up on the orders of Stormont’s first Home Affairs Minister, Sir Dawson Bates.

Nationalist senators complained at the conditions the men were held in and claimed the ship would be an easy target for German bombers."

"An autograph book from the period when IRA suspects and republican sympathisers were interned on a prison ship in the middle of Strangford Lough has been found and is now one of the central features of a new exhibition at the Ulster Museum in Belfast."

"The artefact is from the Al Rawdah prison ship, which was anchored in the lough, between Killyleagh and Portaferry, at the beginning of the Second World War."

"The autograph book is one of the features of Conflict: Irish at War, an exhibition at the museum, where it is placed beside an original Mauser rifle – one of 25,000 smuggled into Ulster by the UVF on board the SS Clyde Valley. "

" [email protected] "

https://stairnaheireann.net/2013/11/23/1876-sir-richard-dawson-bates-unionist-politician-and-minister-in-northern-ireland-is-born-in-belfast/

http://kerrscorner.blogspot.co.uk/2006/07/conflict-irish-at-war.html

http://nmni.com/um/Visiting-Information/Find-us

http://nmni.com/Contact

       ***
"‘Internment’ by John McGuffin (1973)"

http://www.irishresistancebooks.com/internment/internment.htm#contents

Chapter 5.... INTERNMENT IN NORTHERN IRELAND 1922-1961

See under 1938-1961

http://www.irishresistancebooks.com/internment/intern5.htm

       ***
Be aware of a different ship and of a different autograph book from that ship.

HMS Argenta ,... which was used to house internees during the 1920's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Argenta

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2017, 08:33:30 AM »
One of the links in the post above mentions that... "One internee, Jack Gaffney, died while on the boat. "

That appears to be Sean Gaffney who is buried in Milltown Cemetery in Belfast.

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Gaffney&GSbyrel=all&GSdy=1940&GSdyrel=in&GScntry=306&GSob=n&GRid=112793586&df=all&

His death certificate will be available from the General Record Office of Northern Ireland, aka GRONI.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/order-death-certificate-online

Apparently he fell from a bunk and received head injuries which were supposedly untreated. !

He and a number of others are listed here...

https://treasonfelony.wordpress.com/2015/09/12/deaths-during-internment-in-the-north-in-the-1940s/

An American author wrote a book about the 1920's internees on HMS Argenta and as part of her research she tried to find the records for one of her relatives who had been an internnee on the ship.

She found his file in the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland aka PRONI in Belfast, but at first they were reluctant to release it but eventually they did.

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/arts2001/mar30-01_Kleinrichert_book_on_Argenta__MOMuilleoir.php

There are a whole bunch of file references listed on the document on this link...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/355473/response/871366/attach/4/DCAL%20FOI%20Requests.XLSX.xlsx

one of which is "Prison ship Al Rawdah (FOI 21465)"

So perhaps PRONI might have similar individual records and perhaps prisoner lists for your WW2 ship.  https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni

You might need to enquire about and apply for access to any relevant records via a Freedom Of Information Act request.

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/the-freedom-of-information-act

For the benefit of the forum readers, this is the author whom you are assisting...

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/lifestyle/ireland-in-a-state-of-chaos-30733091.html

http://www.generationpublishing.com/about-the-author

http://www.generationpublishing.com/the-books/they-put-the-flag-a-flyin/reviews

       

doare.

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 11:20:36 AM »
interestin accounts, i am nearly sure there was a discussion on the 3 prison ships on belfast forum before...
"You see things; you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?” ....shaw..

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 12:50:04 AM »
interestin accounts, i am nearly sure there was a discussion on the 3 prison ships on belfast forum before...
You might be thinking of the forum message thread in this link which is listed above in reply 3.

http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,13641.0.html

It contains this link to a 1940 House of Commons debate about the ship.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1940/oct/15/steamship-al-rawdah-internees

It also contains this document image.


James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 03:27:28 AM »
This is a list of the files about HMS Al Rawdah which are held in the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland in Belfast aka PRONI,... one of them appears to be a list of internees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Al_Rawdah_(1911)

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-ecatalogue

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni

There is a similar list of records for HMS Argenta which was used to house republican internees in Ulster in the 1920'shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Argenta








pflanagan132

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 03:42:25 PM »
Thanks to everyone who has responded. It appears that PRONI have details of internees from this period, and we have contacted them. Whether thay can help is another matter. In the meantime, anybody who can identify men and women interned 1938-1946 please let us have them.
The Eileen Hickey Museum is also helping.

pflanagan132

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 05:10:04 PM »
Thanks James for the PRONI item. Should those links open when we click on "view"?

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 12:47:47 AM »
Thanks James for the PRONI item. Should those links open when we click on "view"?
Yes they will, when you do that yourself on the PRONI site. I can't post the links to the result of clicking on the view link url for each file, because the page that opens when that is done, times out after several minutes, and so each viewer has to do that for themselves on PRONI. The file search results page also times out after several minutes, so the viewer has to do the file search for themselves on PRONI.

Most of the view links contain just a basic description of the file contents, one of them contains some additional information about prison matters. To see the full content of each file someone would probably need to visit need to visit PRONI. Someone on the Belfast forum might be able to do that for you. Or possibly, and in view of the reason for your research, PRONI might be willing to copy the information, depending possibly on how large the file contents are.

PRONI has a research enquiry page by which they may be contacted, and apparently you may have already done that.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/forms/enquiry-service-proni

To access the files reference page and view URLs, go to the page on the link below...
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-ecatalogue

Scroll a short distance down the page until you see a green bar with the words "Search the eCatalogue" written on it,... click on that and the files search page will appear.

Search on the word Rawdah,... and the list of files will appear, then click on the view option next to each file.

I suggest that you forward the URL of this message topic/thread to the author and let her decide for herself how she wants to proceed with the research. She doesn't need to be a member of the forum to be able to view the message thread.

This is the url of this message topic/thread.
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,69793.0.html

This is the url of the message topic/thread about the Al Rawdah.
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,13641.0.html

The Ulster Museum in Belfast should also be contacted, because almost certainly they will either probably still have the autograph book or else will know where it now is.
http://nmni.com/um/Visiting-Information/Find-us

http://nmni.com/um/Contact-Us

gray_marian

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 10:59:01 AM »
#3, ''http://historyhubulster.co.uk/royal-navy-world-war-ii/''

Thank you James, great photographs.

pflanagan132

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 12:07:07 PM »
Thank you James, I got to view those files, sadly nothing of substance.

Anybody know anything about these internees mentioned on the Forum;
Joe Raffo,
Matt Quinn
Dessie O'Connor,
James McHugh
Jim McVeigh.
Also maggiemay mentions that her father was on the Al Rawdah, who was he?
Who were the guys who trained the mouse to bring messages?

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 03:41:18 PM »
Some of the people who mentioned relatives on the Al Rawdah message thread...
 
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,13641.0.html
haven't logged on to the forum for a long time, others are still recently active on the forum.

Click on the poster's forum name to the left of their posts and you will see their forum profile page which will tell you when they were last active on the forum, and you can also send them a private message on the forum aka a pm, and even if they are no longer active on the forum a copy of that pm may be seen by them if they are still using the same email address that they used to sign up to the forum with, because as well as pm's being readable on the forum, a copy of the pm is usually also sent to the recipient's email address.

It might also be worth starting a mew message thread/topic with an appropriate, "Do you know these WW2 Irish Republican internees" ? type message title.

James James

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Re: Internees 1938-1946
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2017, 03:49:19 PM »
#3, ''http://historyhubulster.co.uk/royal-navy-world-war-ii/'' 
That's a really excellent site about the Ulster military topics.