Author Topic: Appalling  (Read 4199 times)

James James

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 10:52:25 AM »
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uLyCdFnoFk

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OttNo41ab0
One small town in the whole of England, and a festival which is formally organised by several different organisations. !

Sorry, but that/those events are totally untypical and unrepresentative of most of the mainland in terms of 5th November bonfires, most of which are now pretty much of a rarity in respect of what they used to be, and they don't and never did carry the same intended provocative/triumphalist intimidatory political, religious, and social baggage that they always have done in Belfast and Ulster, and as for the political context of the guy, if mainland people are even aware of it, they just regard it as a symbol of an historical event, and not as something that has any current political or social relevance.

The 5th of November, and any of the increasingly rare bonfires that still get created for it on the mainland have no more political, religious, or social relevance to people on the mainland than does a village fiesta to the villagers in Spain,... and there is absolutely no mutual equivalence nor comparative relevance between Belfast and Ulster bonfires and mainland 5th November bonfires and the respective reasons for them and for what they represent.

Hairoil777

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 12:02:40 PM »
I thnk we should have more bonfires really, bigger and higher.... plenty of tyres.
Its homely.
Dont hold me to that though, i need to do some more research on it and i'll be back with my findings.  ;)

belle

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 01:14:13 PM »
The bonfire we go to is very organised.  The fire is never very high and the fire work are splendid! I love them. If the bonfire wasn't there i'd still go for the fire works and to raise money for charity. In all the years i have been going i have never ever heard anyone mention religion or indeed the reason for the bonfire. I live in a big city.
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misssmyth1

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 11:29:37 AM »
I agree with JJ  .re: the bonfires in the UK for 5th November.... the fires in Ni just keep the 'problem' going on but cannot see it changing ..  when we were children we hadn't a clue what it was all  about.. just thought it was a bit exciting ...  a big fire...   but as adults we have a choice whether to join in or not . It will not ever end though as many people like to have it going on each year and keep the hatred going .. very sad in this day and age.

GandT

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2017, 11:40:39 AM »

Fair enough and I don't want to enter the bonfire controversy too much. But are we forgetting something - I mean old Guy gets a right roasting each year, wasn't it about some plot to rebel and overthrow, wasn't it to do with some Catholics or other wanting to change the state, wasn't it a good few centuries ago, was it always just fund and japes blah, blah, blah! How come one country's view of what it does is considered so quaint, polite, humorous, jolly good fun and so on. Just that they left the hate and the history behind earlier? Distance, it appears, lends enchantment - the 5th November must surely once have had some ....dare I say it.....sectarian undertones!

I don't want to enter the whole NI controversy and I have made it clear in the past that I think individual communities only can finally solve the problem. Once again, however, there is always that degree of noblesse oblige, hypocrisy and double-standards when the 'civilised' English point out to us in NI how backward we are. Are we? Or are we just more forthright?

James James

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2017, 04:48:07 PM »
Yeah right, the current Belfast bonfires are being built like mini skyscrapers just for fun, and to avoid making any problems for themselves, the authorities are allowing it to happen,... and the last time that they did that,... they spent thirty years trying to deal with the consequences of what their indifference and inaction led to.

Nowhere man

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2017, 05:38:09 PM »
Fair enough and I don't want to enter the bonfire controversy too much. But are we forgetting something - I mean old Guy gets a right roasting each year, wasn't it about some plot to rebel and overthrow, wasn't it to do with some Catholics or other wanting to change the state, wasn't it a good few centuries ago, was it always just fund and japes blah, blah, blah! How come one country's view of what it does is considered so quaint, polite, humorous, jolly good fun and so on. Just that they left the hate and the history behind earlier? Distance, it appears, lends enchantment - the 5th November must surely once have had some ....dare I say it.....sectarian undertones!

I don't want to enter the whole NI controversy and I have made it clear in the past that I think individual communities only can finally solve the problem. Once again, however, there is always that degree of noblesse oblige, hypocrisy and double-standards when the 'civilised' English point out to us in NI how backward we are. Are we? Or are we just more forthright?

A marked difference in the extremeness, G&T. The ones in England are minimal and usually council permitted and safe. It is generally an all are welcome affair and causes no damage to buildings etc. Furthermore the cost in cleaning afterwards is small and they are few and far between. Also you get a splendid firework display at some.

No, there is no sectarian undertones, well none that I have been to - everyone is welcome from all parts of the community.
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James James

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2017, 05:53:46 PM »
This is not what used to be classed as a typical sort of Belfast bonfire,... and it's clearly intended to be sending out a particular and very obvious message.


toadstool999

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2017, 07:07:09 PM »
This is not what used to be classed as a typical sort of Belfast bonfire,... and it's clearly intended to be sending out a particular and very obvious message.


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White dee

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2017, 09:26:25 PM »


Who's that on top  ???  wee Wullie  :D  Ach go on ya Bhoyo  :D
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GandT

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2017, 09:53:22 PM »


A marked difference in the extremeness, G&T. The ones in England are minimal and usually council permitted and safe. It is generally an all are welcome affair and causes no damage to buildings etc. Furthermore the cost in cleaning afterwards is small and they are few and far between. Also you get a splendid firework display at some.

No, there is no sectarian undertones, well none that I have been to - everyone is welcome from all parts of the community.

No, I accept that all that you say is true of modern bonfires etc. in England. My point is simply that we are not at that point and that England has now reached it does not give people a right to lecture. I also said that at one stage the sectarian motive had to be there - not that it exists currently. I just don't like the idea that some places possessed of the zeal of the converted non-smoker [no pun intended] take it upon themselves to lecture others. I am also firmly of the opinion [based on my own experience and what I know of people here] is that hostility, criticism, mockery, aggressive moralising and so on simply do not and will not work. Progress may be slow but reform has to come from within communities - no amount of hectoring will achieve what 'insiders' can work.

I hate the whole bonfire scene and wish it would disappear tomorrow but I am old enough to remember when 'we' did it; when we sang sectarian songs; don't remember burning flags or effigies but can't say it didn't happen; some drinking and 'carousing' until late hours and so on. It was a long, long, long time ago and I was basically a kid - not quite as long as Guy Fawkes, mind you - but a short enough time for me not to take moral high ground as a means of dissuading others!

jjmack

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2017, 05:25:26 AM »

No, I accept that all that you say is true of modern bonfires etc. in England. My point is simply that we are not at that point and that England has now reached it does not give people a right to lecture. I also said that at one stage the sectarian motive had to be there - not that it exists currently. I just don't like the idea that some places possessed of the zeal of the converted non-smoker [no pun intended] take it upon themselves to lecture others. I am also firmly of the opinion [based on my own experience and what I know of people here] is that hostility, criticism, mockery, aggressive moralising and so on simply do not and will not work. Progress may be slow but reform has to come from within communities - no amount of hectoring will achieve what 'insiders' can work.

I hate the whole bonfire scene and wish it would disappear tomorrow but I am old enough to remember when 'we' did it; when we sang sectarian songs; don't remember burning flags or effigies but can't say it didn't happen; some drinking and 'carousing' until late hours and so on. It was a long, long, long time ago and I was basically a kid - not quite as long as Guy Fawkes, mind you - but a short enough time for me not to take moral high ground as a means of dissuading others!

Well said.  :)
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Nowhere man

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2017, 08:33:55 AM »

No, I accept that all that you say is true of modern bonfires etc. in England. My point is simply that we are not at that point and that England has now reached it does not give people a right to lecture. I also said that at one stage the sectarian motive had to be there - not that it exists currently. I just don't like the idea that some places possessed of the zeal of the converted non-smoker [no pun intended] take it upon themselves to lecture others. I am also firmly of the opinion [based on my own experience and what I know of people here] is that hostility, criticism, mockery, aggressive moralising and so on simply do not and will not work. Progress may be slow but reform has to come from within communities - no amount of hectoring will achieve what 'insiders' can work.

I hate the whole bonfire scene and wish it would disappear tomorrow but I am old enough to remember when 'we' did it; when we sang sectarian songs; don't remember burning flags or effigies but can't say it didn't happen; some drinking and 'carousing' until late hours and so on. It was a long, long, long time ago and I was basically a kid - not quite as long as Guy Fawkes, mind you - but a short enough time for me not to take moral high ground as a means of dissuading others!

Fair enough, G&T. I wrote my response a bit quick when dashing for the bus out the rain so didn't take in the intricacies of your post. Agree on most of your points and I hadn't really thought of it from the timeframe point of view in line with the 5th November.

I didn't realise the English, unless you are referring to the media, paid much attention to the pastime? I am sure the news programmes might show a bit on the mainland. The English people I know don't have a scooby doo what goes in NI and of the ones who have been over to visit they struggle to get their heads round it. Maybe based on historical context, in England you would not be able to construct such bonfires without the council removing it and if you were persistent a charge from the police. Again, different places different histories I guess...

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desi

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2017, 09:45:15 AM »
JUSTICE FOR THE BALLYMURPHY 11.

desi

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Re: Appalling
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2017, 10:12:44 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuFImGi5q5Q
This is sick ,they now give them money to light bonfires ,and they call it Culture  ??? ??? :o >:D >:D
JUSTICE FOR THE BALLYMURPHY 11.


 

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