Author Topic: 9 lavina street  (Read 1160 times)

sunflower38

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9 lavina street
« on: February 07, 2018, 11:27:32 PM »
Hi I am looking for anyone that remembers my Nan, Sarah Hoy whom passed away in 1990. She had 11 children one of which is my dad, Norman Hoy.
I am trying to trace the rest of my dads family, I do know there were 5 girls and 6 boys, one of them being my dad. Sarah Hoy was married to William Hoy. Her maiden name was McCallan. Sarah lived at 9 Lavinia Street all her life. Due to the troubles in Ireland at the time, I was never able to visit my Nan, or any other relatives. However later this year I and my husband hope to come over and visit Lavinia Street and see where my dad and grandparents were raised.

Please if anyone knows of or used to know my dad, grandparents, aunts and uncles, could you let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Michelle Dann (previously Hoy).

bjay

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 07:10:32 PM »
Hi Michelle,  Lavinia Street is long gone. The whole area was redeveloped in the 1970's.  A development named Lavinia Square on the Ormeau Rd was built several years ago but it is  not in the same location as the original Lavinia Street.

sunflower38

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 10:27:18 PM »
Thanks bjay. Yes we've been looking at old and new aerial photos. It looks like they've built an industrial estate there now. I do have one correction, my nan lived at number 22 Lavinia Street, not number 9.

sonnyboy

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 12:36:03 AM »
Sunflower 38 Yes Lavina St is long gone my Granny and Grandda lived there back then Elizabeth and John Nesbitt They had 4 children John (my dad ) Robbert (Bobby) Bernard (Barney ) and Lawrence ( Larry ) Your gan Gran da uncles and aunts might have known them Good luck on your visit to Belfast im sure you will love it

sunflower38

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 11:52:42 PM »
hi sonyboy ,
do you think you can ask your dad if he remembers them , all i have seen is photos of my Nan bless her. im really clutching at straws here. im trying to do my family tree. i was 2 years old when my granddad died so never met him either, my dad always wanted us girls to meet his mum , but the timing wasn't right etc (troubles). my dad has past away  16 years this Sunday.  i always promised him when the time right i will go. obviously doing my family tree its so complicated. so if anyone can point me in the right direction . what i also know is EZEKIEL HOY is prominent in our family , but now realising there are so many and trying to work out the ages omg :o . I do know there should be some relatives  alive my auntie and uncles children mainly  but not knowing there names (MY COUSINS). my dad name is unusual as well hes called NORMAN Hoy  he left for England in the 1960s , he worked at Harlem and Woff  engineering . a lot of this is from memory as my dad passed away when i was 32yrs old and i miss him terrible. he told me lots of things with family but at much younger age and i wasn't interested then  if only i listened my tree would be a lot easier now. please bear in mind my dad was 46 when i was born so you can see why ? so anything just anything would really help me . yes im sooo looking forward to coming over and im sure it will be the first of many visits i hope.
Thank you once again 

     

CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 01:53:17 AM »
The Belfast street directories on the Lennon Wylie website show the following entries for Lavinia Street:

1943: 22. Hoy, Mrs. Sarah
1951: 22. Hoy, Mrs. Sarah
1960: 22. Hoy, Mrs. Sarah

http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/index.htm

Just clutching at straws here, but I wonder if the following marriage is relevant, it took place on 27 November 1917 in Donegall Pass Presbyterian Church in Belfast, the two parties were a William Hoy and a Sarah 'McGall', with fathers  listed as Ezekiel Hoy and Ignatius McGall (both farmers):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09758/5541584.pdf

On 1 September 1918, a William James Hoy was born to parents William James Hoy and Sarah 'McCall' of 1 Khartoum Street.

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 02:01:42 AM »
This appears to be the right folk:



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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 02:33:24 AM »
Again clutching at straws, but with the name being quite uncommon, is there a possibility that this man was related?

https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=9261.20475

Born c. 1921, if the reported age is accurate.

BTW, the marriage photo I posted previously at reply #6 was from The Northern Whig of 18 August 1948.

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 03:40:50 AM »

There is a birth registration index entry for the birth of a Rachel Hoy registered in Belfast in the quarter Jan - Mar 1920, this looks like a possibility.

Further to the marriage photo at reply #6 above showing Rachel Hoy marrying a John E Haslem, son of HJ Haslem of 48a Donegall Pass, note the following Will Calendars entry:

Haslem Henry John of 17 Donegall Pass and of 39 Haypark Avenue both in Belfast of no occupation died 9 July 1958 at 39 Haypark Avenue Belfast Probate Belfast 8 October to James Kennedy and John Edmund Haslem drapers.

The 1981 Northern Ireland phone book listed Belfast entries for a TJ Haslem operating a drapery at 17 Donegall Pass and a J Haslem living at 39 Haypark Avenue.

The electoral registers show a Rachel Haslem with a birth date of 1918-1920 resident within the period 2003-2008 at 39 Haypark Avenue Belfast BT7 3FD.
 
So looks like Rachel married into a drapery family, maybe this or the addresses will trigger something for folk.

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 05:18:56 AM »
All of the following could be barking up the wrong tree, but the problem is that I'm struggling to find a Hoy-McCallan marriage, the one to Sarah 'McGall' seems to be as close as I can get for now. 

Taking that 1917 marriage info forward, a guess for William (father given as Ezekiel, a farmer) is this one in Ballymagarrick just outside Carryduff in a 1901 census return for Ezekiel Hoy and Mary Anne Reid:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Drumbo/Ballymagarrick/1238853/

The son William in that census return was born at Ballymagarrick in 1885:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02662/1981298.pdf

Turning to Sarah McGall in the 1917 marriage, the only potential match I could see for her father (given as Ignatius McGall, a farmer) is this one up in Co. Londonderry in the 1911 census, with 2 sons listed as born in Scotland:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Salterstown/Ballydonnell/614110/

Ignatius lived to a brave age, the following is from the Will Calendars Index (GRONI shows a reported age of 92 at death): McGall Ignatius of Ballydonnell Ballyronan county Londonderry farmer died 12 February 1947 Administration Belfast 6 June to Edmund McGall joiner.

Given the Scottish reference in the previously mentioned 1911 census return, and given that you mentioned in a previous post that one of your father's brothers was called Farley Hoy - which is quite unusual - I wondered if this Scottish born Sarah McGall staying with her Grandfather William Farley up in Co. Londonderry was a possibility:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Ballyronan/Ballymulderg_Beg/612951/

This looks like the same Sarah living with her grandfather in 1901, this time her birthplace given as 'Co Derry' (note the Ballyneale address for later):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Loop/Ballyneal_More/1534990/

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 05:23:14 AM »
Continued...

This is where it gets more interesting, for about 6 months before the previously posted 1911 census return was taken for Ignatius McGall of Ballydonnell, a 58 year old Rachel McGall of Ballydonnell died, the wife of a farmer Agnew McGall of Ballydonnell:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05423/4515757.pdf

So I'm wondering, was Ignatius a.k.a. Agnew?     

Then about 4 months after the above 1911 census return was taken for Ignatius McGall of Ballydonnell, a 58 year old Ignatius McGall of Ballydonnell married a Maggie Berryman:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09956/5619789.pdf

The important thing to note is the father's details for Ignatius, namely David McGall (a farmer), for then the following marriage back in 1878 presents an interesting possibility, again up in Co. Londonderry, of an Agnew McGall of Ballyneale - father David McGall (a farmer) - to Rachel Farley, daughter of William Farley:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11100/8062625.pdf

Critically, there is a birth record in Scotland (specifically Leith) for a Sarah McGall born 12 April 1895 to parents recorded as Agnew McGall and Rachel Farley, the birth record cites them as having married on 8 June 1878 at Ballyneal, Londonderry, which is an exact match for the marriage record posted above.

The 1891 and 1901 Scotland censuses shows Agnew and Rachel McGall and family living in Leith, there is no sign of Sarah in the 1901 Scotland census, which is consistent with her living with her grandfather as posted previously. 

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2018, 09:14:53 AM »
The father of Ignatius (a.k.a. Agnew) McGall was listed as David McGall (a farmer) in both of Ignatius' (1878 & 1911) marriages.  A David McGall and Sarah Watterson got married in Woods Chapel (Church of Ireland) Co. Londonderry on 28 January 1853, what makes the marriage interesting is that David's residence was recorded as 'Ballyneil' and his wife Sarah Watterson's father's first name was... Ignatius.

Full details:
- David McGall of Ballyneil, bachelor, farmer, son of David McGall (a farmer);
- Sarah Watterson of Lisnamorrow, spinster, daughter of Ignatius Watterson, a farmer.

Civil registration of births only commenced in 1864 and I can see civil records  for a son William born to this couple in 1866 and a son Robert in 1867 (the address in each case was Ballyneal).  Ignatius McGall in the 1911 census return for Ballydonnell was 58, so born c. 1853.  His reported age at death in 1947 was 92, so born c. 1855.  From that I'm going to guess that Ignatius was an early, if not the first child of David McGall and Sarah Watterson. 

Added weight comes from David McGall's death in 1894, he was described in the death registration as a 62 year old married farmer residing in Ballyneil Beg, but the interesting bit is his will, which has been digitised and is available to read online, in which he mentions his wife Sarah and makes a number of bequests to children including this line: I leave and bequeath to my son Ignatius the sum of two shillings and six pence sterling.

The will can be found and read here:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx

Sarah (Watterson) McGall, David's wife, died in 1900.

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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 09:55:27 AM »
A little more speculative this time.  When Rachel Farley married Agnew McGall in 1878, her father was given as William Farley (a weaver), the same man in the 1901 and 1911 census returns I previously posted showing a daughter Matilda Farley and of course granddaughter Sarah McGall living with him.

A 20 year old weaver called William Farley of Ballyneill married a Margaret Boyd of Ballyneill in Woods Chapel (Church of Ireland) Co. Londonderry on 12 August 1856 - the same church where David McGall married Sarah Watterson 3 years earlier. William's father was recorded as James Farley, a farmer, Margaret's father as Joseph Boyd, a farmer.

With civil registration only commencing in 1864, the first children I can see to this couple were an unnamed daughter in 1865, an unnamed daughter in 1867 and a daughter Elizabeth in 1870, all three born at Ballyneal. With Rachel Farley being described as 'full age' at the time of her 1878 marriage to Agnew McGall, she would clearly have predated civil registration.

One of the witnesses to Rachel's 1878 marriage was a Rebecca Farley, interesting then to note the marriage below which took place the following year of a Rebecca Ann Farley to Samuel Hunter, in which Rebecca's address was given as Ballyneil, her father as William Farley (a weaver), and the witnesses were... one Agnew and Rachel McGall:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11080/8054819.pdf

While no smoking gun, I'm therefore going to suggest that the parents of Rachel Farley, who married Agnew McGall, were William Farley and Margaret Boyd.

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sunflower38

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Re: 22 lavina street
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 03:42:15 PM »
HI CMcG,
Thank you so much for posting the photo, yes this is my auntie Rachel, i am so grateful for this.

However after looking up the censors for 1901 and 1911, i found the other information was not relevant to my family unfortunately. Farley was my uncles first name Not surname. David MCcallan (Sarahs father my nan) was born in Australia . Mother was Mary Quinn i believe  (mary MCcallan my nan mother)   

what i did find strange was that my grand father William Hoy was registered as brother in law on the censors he was aged 38 single yet my nan sarah was aged 19 spinster  and both living in the same house. so i am now thinking how can this be !!!! all a bit strange to me . they were flex dressers .
as from here i will look up on some of the links you have posted maybe this will help me
whats also strange on ancestry i have had no hints on Rachel husband John E Haslem which i thought i would,

thank you so much for the photo , and im sorry that all the other information was not relevant All your hard work in helping me .However i do believe that william Hoy father is named EZEKIEL Hoy as my dad always told me the reason why my brother was named EZEKIEL was after his father father , and when you look it up it does get quite confusing as all sons were named after someone in the family  ::) [size=78%]   [/size]
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CMcG

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Re: 9 lavina street
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 10:54:50 AM »
Hi there, not to worry, it was just a speculative punt that had certain things going for it, for example, it wouldn't have been uncommon here in that era for a surname of an ancestor to be used as a forename, hence the Farley idea. 

Anyway, presumably the folk you mentioned in your reply were these folk:

1901: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Salisbury_Street/978889/

1911: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Shankill/Legnavea_Street/171571/

This 1888 marriage of a David McCallan to Mary Hoy would seem to be a possibility for the couple in the above census returns:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10754/5922033.pdf

However, I'm struggling thus far to find the birth registrations for the children shown in the census returns.

So are you suggesting that the person whom William Hoy in the above 1911 census return married was his niece Sarah McCallan?  ???    What is the basis of that information?

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.