Author Topic: How to find military records? WW1  (Read 445 times)

CregaghSarah

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How to find military records? WW1
« on: February 08, 2018, 02:55:30 PM »
I'm searching for a Hugh/ Henry Macklin where I have his life up until 1911 and just trying to fill in the blanks.

He is found in a workhouse on Lisburn Road aged 11 on the 1911 census along with his younger brother John. By this stage his mother Agnes had died in the same workhouse and the last time I can find his father Hugh is when his sister Mary Macklin married a Herbert Woods in 1908. (His parents were always in and out of prison and workshouses)

Apparently not long after that he enlisted himself in the military and served in WW1. (A good bit younger than he should have been)

I have his Army no. 13053134 (could also be 13053734 as the info is faded).
I have a photo of him in uniform where he has three stripes on his sleeve (Sergeant?).
I was told he was in the Pioneers. i'm guessing this to be16th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles (Pioneers)

I'd like to know when he signed up (so I can work out what age he was) and where he was sent to fight, (Maybe some info on what it was like for him there)

I know it's asking a lot but any info you can give would be greatly apprecited!
Thanks!
Sarah

JimG

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 11:06:17 PM »
You are on the best website for likely identification of WW1 records so i hope you have several repies yet to come
I tried https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/records.asp?SE=go&adID=248561210321&KW=world%20%2Bwar%201%20service%20records&SC=32&NO=5980&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgKHxmviY2QIVpLDtCh20aQCPEAAYAyAAEgLl1vD_BwE
under H, Henry, Hugh Macklin, and just Macklin its strange that a young sergeant almost
a warrant officer is not included. I also checked https://www.cwgc.org/

in your photo are any buttons showing or shoulder flashes etc or medal

emerald ancestors see https://www.emeraldancestors.com/marriages
1878   Hugh  MACKLIN        Emily  XXXXX Belfast            Antrim
1886   Hugh  MACKLIN        Agnes  XXXX  Belfast            Antrim
 
his family appear to be listed as church of Ireland most macklin in the census are catholic
1907 directory http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk has
Macklin, Hugh, spirit grocer, 107 New Lodge Road Do you think could be the father?
Macklin, John, printer, 10 McGahey Street
Macklin, Mary, 50 George's Street Great
Macklin, Mrs., refreshments, 17 Amelia Street
Macklin, Mrs., 58 Fitzwilliam Street
 
 
1910 http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1910.htm Sackville Street ran from Melbourne Street to Coates' Street
Macklin, Mary 29 Sackville Street
Macklin, Hugh, spirit grocer, 107 New Lodge Road
Macklin, J., painter, 83 Charles Street South
Macklin, Mrs., refreshments, 17 Amelia Street
Macklin, Mrs., 58 Fitzwilliam Street
 
1943 http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk
Penrith Street ran from 28 Westmoreland Street to Beverley Street
4. Macklin, Hugh  I connect this Hugh to Hugh d 1981 Ballyree Bangor below
 
 
burials http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx
below buried in same grave
Martha           Bowman         79 Years         13 February 1944    15 February 1944    City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension          View details   last address 4 Penrith Street  see 1943 above entry [wondered was Martha Bowman nee  a Macklin]
in 1932 might be connected to  6. Penrith Street Bowman, H., labourer Penrith Street
 
Hugh   Macklin [b~ 1898-9]            83       8 March 1981             11 March 1981       City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension          View details   last address  5 Ballyree Drive Bangor  Do you think this is your Hugh

 
Margaret Jane Macklin b 1904       58 Yrs 8 April 1962  10 April 1962            City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension          View details   not found in 1911 census last address 4 Penrith Street   could she be his wife or sister
 
James Connen? Macklin b~1945    27       25 March 1972         22 March 1972         City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension          last address 4 Penrith Street           
is he a grandson

CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 11:23:03 PM »
Hi jim thanks for the reply. I have his parents etc already.
Hugh Macklin and Agnes Steele, they feature in a couple of newspaper articles for their arrests etc. I have his life story and his parents story including their son james born in prison that died 12 days later, all up until 1911 where he features in census for lisburn road workhouse. They were church of ireland.  I have this info for certain as confirmed by his grandson.

All I need is when he enrolled and where he may have served. His father Hugh was down as Mocklin in a newspaper article, so maybe it might be under a different spelling?

Apologies if my reply isnt clear enough as im not near my computer and my mobile doesn't seem to be too compatable with the text box.

Thanks for the help!

Sarah

CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 11:29:23 PM »
I'm helping his grandson find the info out, he a little older and hasn't a notion of how to use computers etc. I will let him know who has found the info I'm searching for, I don't take credit for any finds that I haven't found myself. :)

CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 11:35:07 PM »

JimG

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 04:25:40 PM »
     thank you for putting the photo online,  it suggests to me
Hugh Macklin forage cap [ FS field Service cap?], might have a lower dark band.  The normal 2 buttons on the front are unidentifiable to me as RIR, there is a regimental badge, or even a plume, a third of the way back. An enlargement might just help of each bit of his forage cap.  He appears to have at least two medal ribbons, his shoulder stitched on regimental or special identity is unreadable to me.
 
His upward point facing or upside down, 3 stripes does not suggest a Sergeant rank or a Warrant officer, rather a good conduct award for 12 years service . these are worn on the left arm below the elbow.  As were ‘wound stripes’ but these don’t look like them
If Hugh was b 1899 and signed up at age 14 more likely older, add 12 years good conduct so my guess is the photo was taken when either getting married or on his retirement so about 1925.  an enlargement might just help of his forage cap.
 
i am not a military expert, can some reader help   keep going Sarah
 

CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 04:31:30 PM »
You're a star Jim, thanks for the info!

Sarah

James James

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 03:48:50 AM »
Some other unusual looking pictures on that link of yours.  ::)

In future you might do better to upload any pictures via this site,...    https://postimages.org/

The post on this link will explain how to do that, and it's a very easy and reliable site to use...
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,61356.msg2017733.html#msg2017733

Your picture appears below.

NCO rank is normally usually only worn on the upper right sleeve, and those inverted stripes, aka chevrons, which is their official name, aren't rank badges.

They're inverted and they're worn on  his lower left sleeve,... and as was said, they're good conduct chevrons, often sometimes called long service stripes or long service and good conduct stripes.

His rank, if any, isn't visible, because it would be worn on his upper right sleeve, but he isn't a higher rank than Lance Corporal, because they weren't issued to men of a higher rank than Lance Corporal.

More than three could be issued, and as was said, he has served for at least 12 years, because the first three chevrons were awarded, one at a time for each time period without being on a disciplinary charge,... for 2, 6, and 12 years good conduct service.

So he has served for a minimum of 12 years, at least without having been on a disciplinary charge and a maximum of 17 or possibly almost 18 years, again at least without having been on a disciplinary charge, because after 18 years good conduct, he would have been awarded another, chevron and after 18 years he would have been awarded another chevron after each additional period of 5 years good conduct.

He would also have forfeited one of his chevrons for each future disciplinary charge that he was found guilty of, if he had been charged with any disciplinary offence.

It's also possible to say something about his likely unit and the likely time frame of his service period in respect of his Army service number, but that's a separate topic for another time and post, but he certainly served after 1920.

The good news is that his Army service record is still in existence and can almost certainly be successfully applied for, but I'll explain that to you later as well.

As was said, he also has medal ribbons, which are probably for WW1 campaign service,... and I also agree that it looks like two medal ribbons, three campaign ribbons would be the maximum, but entitlement to the first medal was related to time and place of entry into a theater of war, and so many service persons only got the other two medals.

If you have enough information about the woman in the picture, try and figure out a time frame for the picture and his and her likely age.

If you take that picture to a photographer who can restore old and damged photographs, you might be surprised at how much of an improvement can be made to it and it might also be possible to enhance some of the detail in it.

What was the source of his Army service number. ? Presumably it might have been written on the back of the photograph but has faded, if that is so then a restorer could probably enhance it and be able to read it more clearly under ultra violet light or similar.

https://s9.postimg.org/myv9guyxb/2h7nnsl.jpg


CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 12:22:48 PM »
Thanks for the respose

I didnt have a tinypix account so i just did a general upload, some very questionable images there. lol

we have his army number from what i was told was his discharge book (in fairly bad condition)

I can upload the image i was sent of it.

great info, thanks very much!

Sarah

CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 12:33:09 PM »
https://postimg.org/image/vsy7qar2b/

not a great image, apologies.

Sarah


CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 12:34:51 PM »
The woman in the picture is Hugh Macklins wife apparently, I believe her name was Margaret Bowman

JimG

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 01:36:54 PM »
Hi Sarah, well done, thatmakes the likely hood of her living at home with father while Hugh served, father dying and she inherited house
James James confirms my amateur start on the military side, have you tred a further ohoto of original photo, if it was scanned at maximum pics per inch etc it mightbe as good as a contact negative/positive for details .  I for one look forward to James James next reply.
Good luck onwards


CregaghSarah

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 01:50:34 PM »
His grandson who supplied the images thinks the photo was taken on their wedding day in 1925. they were married in St. Annes. (They were church of Ireland so I doubt it was in the Cathedral itself.)

He was born 1898, So if he was 27 years old when they married in 1925 minus the 12 years good conduct/ service he would have most likely been 15 when joining up? would this sound about right?

CregaghSarah

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James James

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Re: How to find military records? WW1
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 06:18:43 AM »
O.K. I'll try and keep this as brief as possible and to the point. I've enhanced his discharge book picture a little bt and his Army service number looks like... 13053134 it could only be 13057134 if that tear has damaged the digit 7. Anyway that doesn't matter, because his full name and date of birth are a unique combination so that alone is enough for the authorities to be able to correctly identify his service record,... but when you apply, also include both numbers and explain about the nature of the damage.    https://s9.postimg.org/4ei3udddr/Macklin.jpg

He was born in 1899 and he served for at least 12 years, so even if he had first enlisted underage as early as 1914, which many people did, that means that he was serving after 1920, and that's the important bit, because a new numbering system was introduced for the army in 1920, and every man was given a new 8 digit number.

Those new numbers were unique to each man and they didn't change even if he changed regiments or corps. Prior to that a man's number was issued by his regiment or corps and if he changed regiments or corps his number would change. Many men in WW1 had up to 6 or more different regimental numbers. Also different regiments and corps were using the same number blocks and so many men in different regiments or corps had the same number, which was officially called a regimental number and not a service number.

Army service records for men who hadn't served after WW1 were eventually stored in a War Office warehouse in London, and many of them were destroyed during the WW2 Blitz. However the records for men who served after WW1 would have been held by their regimental or corps records offices, and they all survived and are now held by the U.K. Ministry of Defence aka M.O.D. in London, and they can be applied for, and they will include his WW1 service records as well,... but make sure that you enter the correct details, because the fee is £30 and it isn't refundable if the correct record can't be identified. For example, you know his correct forename from his birth records, so that will be the name on his service record, unless you have reason to believe otherwise.

Unless he died whilst in service, you will also need to supply a copy of his death certificate, and if you don't already have one, a copy can be obtained from here...

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/DeathCertificate/ConfirmRegistration

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel