Author Topic: Ashers bakery supreme court summary  (Read 1879 times)

James James

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2018, 07:31:26 PM »
The customer was trying to purchase a service,... he wasn't trying to force or impose his beliefs or opinions about the topic of the slogan on the bakers,... nor was he requesting or attempting to force the bakers to agree with his views on the topic of the slogan.

Utter tosh, in my opinion. This little pip squeak knew exactly what he was doing bringing this case to court >:D I am pleased that Asher's won.  Finally lines have been drawn. This was never about icing a cake. It's about having the fundamental right to not have to do something that offends you.
It's about the fundamental right for a business not to be allowed to refuse to supply a legitimate and legal service or product to a customer, that would otherwise be available to any customer, merely because the business owners opinions about an aspect of the goods or service conflicted with those of the customer,... even though the business wasn't being asked to agree with or support the customer's opinions.

By your interpretation of what should be, and apparently now is, legally permissible behaviour by the owners of a business towards their customers,... if a Catholic Priest was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan relevant to the Catholic religion,... or if a member of the LOL was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan about a 12th of July event,... the business would be justified in refusing the order,... merely because the owners of the business didn't personally subscribe to Catholic or LOL beliefs... even though they weren't being asked to.

I.E.,... it's about businesses being able to impose their own beliefs on their customers,... and not vice versa,... and that isn't a matter of personal opinion, its a matter of practical, and now legally supported, fact,... and bigotry towards their customers by owners of businesses in Britain,... has now just been made legally permissible.

LaraHigginson

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2018, 09:48:16 PM »
I think no matter your opinion and no matter the media hype it should absolutely never have taken 250 grand of government money to make a decision.

Although completely believeable with government as it is here.

I appreciate due process but it is absolutely criminal when there are so ordinary people struggling to get legal aid.

HarryHippo

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2018, 09:58:48 PM »
I think no matter your opinion and no matter the media hype it should absolutely never have taken 250 grand of government money to make a decision.

Although completely believeable with government as it is here.

I appreciate due process but it is absolutely criminal when there are so ordinary people struggling to get legal aid.
You have bent the bar there Lara   absolutely agree !! 
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James James

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2018, 02:54:10 AM »
It seems that this photographic agency understands the real nature of the case and it's practical and wide ranging implications for individual freedom of speech and action far better than the judges and many personally biased members of the public do.

"October 11 2018"
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ashers-photographers-booked-for-gay-cake-case-refuse-to-hand-over-images-37410333.html

"Ashers photographers booked for 'gay cake' case refuse to hand over images"

Quote,...

A photographic agency hired to take pictures of the Christian owners of a bakery after their Supreme Court victory in the “gay cake” case has refused to hand over the images, saying the company was “standing up against discrimination”.

On Wednesday, Ashers bakery in Belfast won an appeal over a claim that they had discriminated against a customer after they refused to make him a cake iced with the slogan “Support Gay Marriage".

A photographer was booked using the agency Perfocal for a “business event” which listed only a few details about the brief, with no mention of the specific court case or the individuals to be photographed.

But the photographer later realised that the client was the lobby group Christian Institute, which has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds backing the bakery in their legal challenge.

The images were then withheld and a refund issued.

In a statement Tony Xu, the founder of the booking site, said: “We appreciate that this looks like tit for tat, and it is.”

He said the firm had been booked for many religious ceremonies, as well as same-sex weddings.

In short, we welcome customers from all backgrounds,” he said. “When our photographer on the ground learned what it was while doing the job, they felt immediately uncomfortable with the situation, as many members of the public are, but remained professional.

“As soon as I found out though, I realised this was an opportunity to highlight exactly why this kind of result is damaging."

This isn’t just about standing up against discrimination, I hope our stance serves as an example of exactly where this kind of judgement could lead us. Where does it end ?

Mr Xu added: "Division is being felt everywhere, and I’d sooner we all appreciated each other regardless of our differences. Our knowingly tit-for-tat stance is purely intended to highlight what this kind of judgement opens the door to."

My note,... exactly !,... and exactly what I was also saying about the real nature of the case and the potential consequences of the ruling for individual freedom of expression and action in many other situations that have absolutely no connection with gay issues.

GEMMA

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2018, 04:20:29 AM »
I agree totally with all the positive and correct comments regarding the Supreme court decision, but be aware there are those who want to post negative and provocative opinions just to continue this thread for their own personal reasons, this is my last post on this thread, do not feed the trolls.

gray_marian

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2018, 04:56:50 AM »
It's about the fundamental right for a business not to be allowed to refuse to supply a legitimate and legal service or product to a customer, that would otherwise be available to any customer, merely because the business owners opinions about an aspect of the goods or service conflicted with those of the customer,... even though the business wasn't being asked to agree with or support the customer's opinions.

By your interpretation of what should be, and apparently now is, legally permissible behaviour by the owners of a business towards their customers,... if a Catholic Priest was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan relevant to the Catholic religion,... or if a member of the LOL was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan about a 12th of July event,... the business would be justified in refusing the order,... merely because the owners of the business didn't personally subscribe to Catholic or LOL beliefs... even though they weren't being asked to.

I.E.,... it's about businesses being able to impose their own beliefs on their customers,... and not vice versa,... and that isn't a matter of personal opinion, its a matter of practical, and now legally supported, fact,... and bigotry towards their customers by owners of businesses in Britain,... has now just been made legally permissible.

JJ, Are you seriously asking forum readers to believe you have a higher jurisdiction of thought in this matter than the Supreme Court?
  Get real :D 

jjmack

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2018, 07:20:25 AM »
I think no matter your opinion and no matter the media hype it should absolutely never have taken 250 grand of government money to make a decision.

Although completely believeable with government as it is here.

I appreciate due process but it is absolutely criminal when there are so ordinary people struggling to get legal aid.

The problem here is not the government, but the governments funding of the 'Equality Commission'. They have backed and lost quite a few expensive cases now. Time for Michael Wardlow to be 'relieved' of his post. I listened to him on Radio Ulster the same day the decision was announced, he was still trying to argue (a bit like some on this forum) that the decision of the Supreme Court was wrong. With logic like that, is it little wonder tax payers money is being flushed down the toilet. Of course had the Supreme Court ruled in Lees favour, it would have been a 'great decision'.
High time to 'relieve' Michael Wardlow of his position and cut the funding to this lop sided organisation.  :)
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jjmack

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2018, 07:30:02 AM »
Gives truth to that old proverb: ' You cant have your cake and eat it '

Well certainly 'Mr' Lee can't.  :D
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BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2018, 08:06:31 AM »


He's OMNIPOTENT.   :sarcastic:
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James James

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2018, 09:15:57 AM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/gay-cake-case-was-costly-divisive-and-ill-advised-1.3658914

"It was always about the cake itself, never the customer. Now the UK’s highest court has come to the very same conclusion. The five justices on the supreme court have unanimously decided that the refusal to make a cake with the slogan “support gay marriage”, by Ashers bakery in Belfast, did not discriminate against Gareth Lee, the LGBT activist who ordered it."

"If Ashers had refused to serve Lee because he was gay, then that would have been a clear act of discrimination, and the bakery’s evangelical Christian owners would absolutely have deserved to be prosecuted and fined. But that’s not what happened."

"As the president of the supreme court, Lady Hale, said: “The bakers did not refuse to fulfil his order because of his sexual orientation. They would have refused to make such a cake for any customer, irrespective of their sexual orientation. Their objection was to the message on the cake, not to the personal characteristics of Mr Lee.” She added: “Accordingly, this court holds that there was no discrimination on the ground of the sexual orientation of Mr Lee.”

That's absolutely correct.

The issue has been repeatedly commented on in respect of his sexual orientation,... and people's personal views about homosexuality,... but in fact the real issue was never about that, it was about his intended support for a political campaign issue.

He was never directly discriminated against because of his personal sexual orientation,... he was discriminated against because of his political opinions,... that was the real issue,... it wasn't about his personal sexuality,... and it was his right of freedom of unrestricted political expression that was discriminated against,... and that is directly contrary to both E.U. and British law,... and that's why the ruling was wrong.

So now any business can legally refuse to provide a product or service to a customer,... if it conflicts with their personal religious beliefs about any related issue,... even though they aren't being required to personally support that issue.

So if the cake had been decorated with a message welcoming the Pontiff to Ireland,... the bakers could now legally refuse to decorate it if their religious beliefs were contrary to Catholicism.

jjmack

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
Human Rights  movement gone MAD again all for the one side . we'll be afraid to state an opinion on anything soon . but the lawyers must be happy always the ones to profit  I think there should be a cut off point??? especially for something so trivial when there are terrible injustices going on all over the globe  cant think of anything else to add  good luck to Ashers .

Hear hear, words of wisdom, as usual. Over £500,000 spent arguing on a cake, apparently costing £36.50  :o  How's that for value ?  ::)  On a wider note, I think it exposes the 'liberalism' of the courts, in Northern Ireland.  ::)
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JackM

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2018, 12:08:56 PM »
It's about the fundamental right for a business not to be allowed to refuse to supply a legitimate and legal service or product to a customer, that would otherwise be available to any customer, merely because the business owners opinions about an aspect of the goods or service conflicted with those of the customer,... even though the business wasn't being asked to agree with or support the customer's opinions.

By your interpretation of what should be, and apparently now is, legally permissible behaviour by the owners of a business towards their customers,... if a Catholic Priest was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan relevant to the Catholic religion,... or if a member of the LOL was to ask for a cake to be decorated with a slogan about a 12th of July event,... the business would be justified in refusing the order,... merely because the owners of the business didn't personally subscribe to Catholic or LOL beliefs... even though they weren't being asked to.

I.E.,... it's about businesses being able to impose their own beliefs on their customers,... and not vice versa,... and that isn't a matter of personal opinion, its a matter of practical, and now legally supported, fact,... and bigotry towards their customers by owners of businesses in Britain,... has now just been made legally permissible.

Complete, utter and total tosh.
The case was settled on `common sense` and the fact that the `person` in question was not discriminated against. FACT. I heard this fellow O`Docherty from the rainbow club on the radio, it sounded to me as if he was going to burst into tears.
Asher's have won a case, the consequences of losing would have been horrendous for any business. Of course there will always be those who will try to keep the `pot on the boil`, but for them its over. Ashers have won.   :)
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HarryHippo

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2018, 07:24:27 PM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/gay-cake-case-was-costly-divisive-and-ill-advised-1.3658914

"It was always about the cake itself, never the customer. Now the UK’s highest court has come to the very same conclusion. The five justices on the supreme court have unanimously decided that the refusal to make a cake with the slogan “support gay marriage”, by Ashers bakery in Belfast, did not discriminate against Gareth Lee, the LGBT activist who ordered it."

"If Ashers had refused to serve Lee because he was gay, then that would have been a clear act of discrimination, and the bakery’s evangelical Christian owners would absolutely have deserved to be prosecuted and fined. But that’s not what happened."

"As the president of the supreme court, Lady Hale, said: “The bakers did not refuse to fulfil his order because of his sexual orientation. They would have refused to make such a cake for any customer, irrespective of their sexual orientation. Their objection was to the message on the cake, not to the personal characteristics of Mr Lee.” She added: “Accordingly, this court holds that there was no discrimination on the ground of the sexual orientation of Mr Lee.”

That's absolutely correct.

The issue has been repeatedly commented on in respect of his sexual orientation,... and people's personal views about homosexuality,... but in fact the real issue was never about that, it was about his intended support for a political campaign issue.

He was never directly discriminated against because of his personal sexual orientation,... he was discriminated against because of his political opinions,... that was the real issue,... it wasn't about his personal sexuality,... and it was his right of freedom of unrestricted political expression that was discriminated against,... and that is directly contrary to both E.U. and British law,... and that's why the ruling was wrong.

So now any business can legally refuse to provide a product or service to a customer,... if it conflicts with their personal religious beliefs about any related issue,... even though they aren't being required to personally support that issue.

So if the cake had been decorated with a message welcoming the Pontiff to Ireland,... the bakers could now legally refuse to decorate it if their religious beliefs were contrary to Catholicism.
Gareth Lee, the LGBT Activist who ordered it    !!!  Tells me all i need to know.  no point reading further.
Lux Et Veritas.

jjmack

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2018, 09:06:19 PM »
One wonders why 'Mr.' Lee didn't go to a gay bakery, in the first place, who I am sure would have welcomed his order in its entirety ?
Doesn't half stink this whole thing. Makes one firmly believe Ashers were targeted and set up, from the outset.  >:D

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James James

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Re: Ashers bakery supreme court summary
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2018, 05:48:46 AM »
http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//opinion/columnists/2018/10/13/news/newton-emerson-ashers-verdict-raises-issues-concerning-political-discrimination-1455869/content.html

"Ashers verdict raises issues concerning political discrimination"

"The Supreme Court ruling on the Ashers Bakery case was a chance to tighten up Northern Ireland’s unique law against ‘political discrimination’, which can and has been interpreted to to mean just about anything."