Author Topic: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?  (Read 873 times)

ruth12

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Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« on: February 01, 2019, 05:49:04 AM »
I knew my great grandfather Alexander Campbell well.He was born in 1876 and died in 1965 when I was nine. However, his lineage is a blank. Family say his parents came from Downpatrick. After much research I believe his parents are actually Thomas Campbell and Margaret Ann Brown, married in 1874 on 8th October. Thomas is listed as a "widower". My great Granda was born in 1876. After this I find no record of either Thomas or Margaret Ann. I have scoured the records. I would really appreciate any help to know what happened to them and also to determine who Thomas was married to first time, and if there were children. Or just advice on how-to look. I have an Ancestry account and cannot find any further information and not sure if I am just overlooking something or researching poorly.
This has been something I have looked at a long time and the inability to find the answers is frustrating. Any help at all would mean a lot to me. Thank you.


CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 07:40:06 AM »
Can't help with Thomas Campbell's first marriage, but despite the age in the following record, I'm guessing that this was him (note the death registration informant):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06207/4775923.pdf

And a re-marriage for Margaret Ann (Brown) Campbell:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10732/5912790.pdf

Possibly Margaret Ann (Brown-Campbell) Reid in 1901 at house #5 Killyleagh Street:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Crossgar/Killyleagh_Street/1229861/

I say that because Alexander Campbell and Hanna Calvert were at house #4 Killyleagh Street in the same census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Crossgar/Killyleagh_Street/1229860/

Maybe a death for Margaret Ann (Brown-Campbell) Reid?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05481/4535151.pdf


CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 10:12:20 PM »
Ros Davies' website has the following entry about Alexander Campbell:

b. 10 Feb 1876 in Downpatrick , son of Thomas Campbell & Margaret Ann Brown; married Hannah Quinn Calvert in 1899 in Raffrey Presbyterian Church ; father of Mary Ellen b. 31 Oct 1889 (married Hugh James Adams, d. 19 Jan 1991) & Thomas b. 1902 (married Oilene Balmet(?) c. 1928; died 1982/3) & Alexander b. 1904/5 (married Emily Cathcart c. 1934) & Mary Ellen (married Hugh James Adams in 1922) ; living in Killyleagh St , Crossgar in 1901; a staff sergeant in Crossgar Boys' Brigade c. 1920s; group photo available; died 1965; click here for a photo of Alexander & Hannah outside their house in Killyleagh St, Crossgar

http://www.rosdavies.com/SURNAMES/C/CampbellAi.htm

Also a photograph of Alexander Campbell and Hannah Calvert (9th down):

http://www.rosdavies.com/PHOTOSwords/Houses.htm

(Submitted by a Heather Crowther, contact details available on the website.)


CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2019, 12:50:28 AM »
The will of William Brown of Crossgar who died in 1890 is available to read online at the PRONI website (link below), in it he mentions his daughter 'Margaret Ann Brown otherwise Mrs Reid':

The Will of William Brown late of Crossgar County Down Farmer who died 15 April 1890 at same place was proved at Belfast by William Morrison Farmer and Francis Morrison Publican both of Crossgar the Executors.

https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx

The will also mentions Casement grandchildren - a 1870 marriage record for Lissara Presbyterian Church shows an Eliza Brown of Crossgar marrying a Robert Casement, Eliza's father recorded as William Brown, a weaver:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11382/8178864.pdf

In the following 1882 death registration for a 71 year old Mary Brown of Crossgar, wife of a weaver, the informant is shown as Eliza Casement:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839703.pdf

A Kilmore Church of Ireland parish baptism exists for a Margaret Ann Brown who was born on 31 October 1846, parents given as William and Mary Brown of Crossgar.


ruth12

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2019, 03:44:33 AM »
Thank you so much for your help. This has been enlightening. The Ros Davies website posting by Heather is actually me. That's my photograph also. I had also previously seen the death of that particular Thomas Campbell but discounted it because of the age of that Thomas. I completely missed the fact that William Brown was the informant. This makes sense now. I don't know how I missed that and it is exactly why help from someone such as yourself is just what is needed. However, I'm even more confused about the fact that Margaret remarries and has a granddaughter and lives next door to my great grandparents. How come no one has mentioned this? No one seems to know about it. My great grandparents were alive until I was almost nine. It has to be a step grand daughter?
All the other information is fantastic and I feel a veil has been lifted. Thank you so much for your help. I just don't seem to have the skills of searching that others do and I appreciate you are willing to help others . Thank you so much.
Heather

CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2019, 08:34:47 AM »
Just noticed as well that in the previously posted 1889 registration of marriage between Margaret Ann Brown Campbell and William John Reid, one of the witnesses was a Mary Brown Casement, so all fitting together nicely. I also wondered if the John Reid mentioned as William John's father in that 1889 record was the same John Reid who was a witness to the marriage of Robert Casement and Eliza Brown in 1870... who knows?

I haven't been able to identify the 8 year old 'grand daughter' Maggie who is living with Margaret A Reid at house #5 in Killyleagh Street in the 1901 census, I'm assuming it is the same person as 'daughter' Maggie Ann Reid mentioned as informant in the 1908 death registration for 56 year old Margaret Ann Reid and possibly the same person who gave her father as William John Reid when she married James McClements at Lissara Presbyterian Church in 1918:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09726/5529039.pdf

I couldn't conclusively find her in the 1911 census, though I did wonder about this 19 old recorded with the forename Mary who was working as a servant in the Dickson household:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Crossgar/Derryboy/239409/

In 1911, widower William John Reid was living in Killyleagh Street Crossgar, he stroked out the section about children and there are no other clues in this record:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Crossgar/Killyleagh_Street/239240/

And no clues in the 1901 census record, where he is working as a servant in the Clarke household:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Crossgar/Killinchy_in_the_Woods/1229748/

In the absence of finding a birth c. 1893 for her (under the name Maggie/Margaret Ann Reid), it could be that she was informally adopted or something like that, but maybe fresh eyes will be able to tie her down. 

More generally, I couldn't find any births at all from the marriage of Margaret Ann Brown Campbell and William John Reid and Alexander's was the only birth I could see from the prior marriage of Margaret Ann Brown and Thomas Campbell, so it may well be the case that Margaret Ann Brown only ever had one child in her lifetime. Certainly, at the time of Hannah and Alexander Campbell's deaths in 1964/1965, the only names mentioned in newspaper death notices were on the Calvert side, there was no mention of Campbell nieces or nephews. 
 
Unfortunately, I could gain no further traction on Thomas Campbell, he was clearly much older than Margaret Ann Brown, not an uncommon phenomenon for a second marriage in the circumstances, but given his reported age at time of death, you could be talking about a first marriage and offspring in the 1830s, which is early in the context of the availability of records.  Headstones and burial records for Lissara cemetery would be of interest. Hopefully others will post.


ruth12

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2019, 02:32:13 PM »
As usual I have the answer to one mystery and this has opened another. When Thomas Campbell dies he leaves everything to his two brothers, William and James and a niece, Robina I think, and nothing to his wife Margaret and son Alexander, my great grandfather. When William Brown dies he mentions his daughter Margaret in his will and other grandchildren, the Casements, but no mention of his grandson Alexander. He also mentions a "Lizzie Brown who I reared". Who is Lizzie? Also, if Margaret is living next door to her son Alexander on Killyleagh Street in the 1901 census, you assume they must have been close. Any yet no one knows of her. I also noted that Cissie Ritchie, who lived next door to my G Grandparents, Alexander and Hannah, was also related to the Casements by marriage. He sister married a Casement. I knew Cissie as she also lived to be old. My family were very close with her and I was told she was distantly related (which probably is true for half of Crossgar) I currently have elderly aunts and uncles who deny any knowledge of any of Alexander's family, stating as far as they knew there wasn't any. And yet I have found indications this is clearly not true. I have numerous documents that suggest otherwise and clearly if James and William are brothers of Thomas Campbell there is other family. I have scoured the census of the area house by house looking at family members and I can only think there must have been a split in the family. I grew up knowing Crossgar very well and everyone knew everyone else's business as it was so small. And who is the "grand daughter" Mary Reid and where does she go when Margaret dies? Again scouring the census for clues. Thanks so much for your help - I have a lot to look at here.
Heather

CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 12:16:29 PM »

... When Thomas Campbell dies he leaves everything to his two brothers, William and James and a niece, Robina I think, and nothing to his wife Margaret and son Alexander, my great grandfather ...


I didn't realise there was a will for Thomas Campbell, I searched but couldn't find one in the PRONI Will Calendars index, how did you happen upon it? An interesting, different perspective to what the will said is seeing what literally happened on the ground in Killyleagh Street, which can be analysed online - you may already have seen the following, but in case not...

The starting point is the relevant page for Killyleagh Street Crossgar in Griffith's Valuation, which shows a property #47 with Thomas Campbell as Lessor, but unoccupied, the print date is 1863:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

Then follow a number of Valuation Revision Books which chart pertinent changes to the property (or properties as it becomes) over time:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/about-valuation-revision-books

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/searching-valuation-revision-books

To cut to the chase, the book covering Killyleagh Street 1897-1908 is pretty well a smoking gun in terms of corroborating the whole story of Alexander being Thomas Campbell's son and Margaret Ann Brown's re-marriage to William John Reid, here is the summary (I've included page numbers so that you can navigate quickly):

1864-1876 (page 97 of 103)
Property #47 Killyleagh Street is shown as unoccupied, blue amendment then shows it under the occupation of Thos. Campbell (note also the change in lessor)

1877-1884 (page 129 of 139)
Property #47 Killyleagh Street is shown under the occupation of Thos. Campbell

1885-1896 (page 113 of 122)
Property #47 Killyleagh Street is shown under the occupation of Thos. Campbell (BTW, note that a Samuel 'Richey' has moved in next door)

1897-1908 (page 130 of 143)
Property #47 Killyleagh Street is shown under the occupation of Thos. Campbell, red amendment then shows the property split into 47a and 47b under the occupation of Wm John Reid and Alex Campbell respectively, before blue amendment shows the split properties being renumbered 47 and 48

1909-1920 (page 97 of 154)
Property #47 Killyleagh Street is shown under the occupation of Wm. Jno. Reid, blue amendment then shows it under the occupation of Alex Campbell, property #48 Killyleagh Street is shown under the occupation of Alex Campbell

1921-1930 (page 86 of 140)
Properties #47 & #48 Killyleagh Street are shown under the occupation of Alex Campbell
(BTW, note that 'Samuel Richey' next door has been amended to 'Cissy Ritchie')


ruth12

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 04:08:20 PM »


CMcG - I am not as adept as you at linking documents, or researching either, so not sure if I have added the link correctly to Proni. Thomas Campbell's will is on the PRONI website. Date of death 23rd Sept. 1884 and date of grant 23rd Jan 1885. I copied the link below
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/willsSearchResultsDetails.aspx

I am fascinated at everything you have found out and have been pouring over Griffiths evaluation. This is not something I have used much mainly because I am unfamiliar with it and I realise I need to spend the time to become more familiar with it as it is very useful. While sifting through what you sent I can find info  on other relatives as I had several relatives living on Killyleagh Street and many in the immediate area around Crossgar. I still do. I am hoping to be home later this year and will need to spend a bunch of time in the PRONI facility.
I note Thomas is referred to as the "landlord" in one of the documents although I was under the impression this was leased property. I know when they died the lease on the land was up and my gran was forced to sell the property. It was upsetting for them at the time as they felt they got a pittance for the property and would have otherwise kept it. The cottages were knocked down and new homes built. My grandparents lived further down Killyleagh St. on the other side of the road. They sold this eventually and bought two houses across the street. These have since been demolished and new houses built. I am actually dreading seeing it as I have not been home in a long time and have such happy memories of all this homes.
I was beginning to wonder if I had the correct Thomas as Alexander's father but now it seems irrefutable. That makes it so much easier to continue to research. I can't thank you enough for all this help. I remain very confused as to why my relatives insisted Alexander didn't have other relatives around when he clearly did. My relatives say that his family originally came from the Downpatrick area although as yet I see no evidence of this. It is so much fun solving these mysteries.
I hope I will get better at this research in order to look up things the way you do. I did note you mentioned Alexander's obituaries and wonder how you accessed those. I have one which is cut from the paper but I would like to view others if there are any. I have written to some relatives in case they have them but as they are very elderly they often can't find stuff I know they have.
Thanks again for all this help. It is so much appreciated.
Heather

CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 02:12:22 AM »
The PRONI will you mentioned with date of death 23rd Sept. 1884 is for a different Thomas Campbell, your Thomas is the married weaver who died in 1887 and whose death was registered by his father-in-law William Brown, as per the first link I posted in Reply #1 - I can't see anything in the Will Calendars for your Thomas. 

The Thomas Campbell who died on 23 September 1884 was a grocer and publican, and critically, a bachelor, as per the death registration below:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06310/4809222.pdf

BTW, here are a few key extracts from the 1964 and 1965 death notices...

Belfast Telegraph, 7 December 1964:

CAMPBELL - December 6, 1964, at her residence, Killyleagh St., Crossgar.  HANNAH, dearly-loved wife of Alexander Campbell.  Funeral to-morrow (Tuesday), 8th December, at 2-30 p.m., to Lissara Cemetery ...

CAMPBELL - December 6, 1964, at her residence, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar, HANNAH, dearly-loved wife of Alexander Campbell. - Deeply regretted by her loving Brother and Sister-in-law, Harper and Annie Calvert, and Family Circle, 147 Donegall Avenue, Belfast ...

CAMPBELL - December 6, 1964, at her residence, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar, HANNAH, dearly-loved wife of Alexander (Sandy. - Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Brother and Sister-in-law, Watson and Lily Calvert, and Family Circle, 136 Ormeau Road, Belfast ...

CAMPBELL - December 6, 1964, at her residence, Crossgar, HANNAH, dearly-loved grandmother. - Deeply regretted by Jim, Agnes and Family

Belfast Telegraph, 21 August 1965:

CAMPBELL - August 20, 1965, at Quoile Hospital, Downpatrick, ALEXANDER, dearly loved husband of the late Hannah Campbell.  Funeral from his late residence, 95 Killyleagh Street, Crossgar, tomorrow (Sunday) at 3 p.m. to Lissara Cemetery ...

CAMPBELL - August 20, 1965, at Hospital, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, Killyleagh St., Crossgar, brother-in-law of Mrs. Elizabeth James [maybe a typo for Jane?] Patterson, Killyleagh St., Crossgar, and Uncle of James and Mina Patterson ...

CAMPBELL - August 20, 1965, at Hospital, ALEXANDER (SANDY), dearly loved husband of the late Hannah Campbell, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar.  Deeply regretted by his sorrowing Brother-in-law, Sister-in-law and Family, Watson and Lily Calvert, 136 Ormeau Road, Belfast.


CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 02:41:17 AM »
Belfast Telegraph, 26 August 1936:

ADAMS - August 26, 1936 (suddenly), at the County Infirmary, Downpatrick, Thomas (wee Tom), dearly loved son of Hugh James and Nellie Adams, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar.  Funeral from his parents' residence, on Friday, 28th inst., at 2 o'clock, to Lissara Cemetery ... Sadly missed by his loving Daddy and Mammie, little Brothers and Sisters ... Deeply regretted by his loving Grandparents, Uncles, and Aunts, WM. JOHN AND MARGARET ADAMS, Killinchy Woods, Crossgar ... Deeply regretted by his loving Grandparents, ALEXANDER AND HANNAH CAMPBELL, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar ... Deeply regretted by his loving Uncle, TOM ADAMS ... Deeply regretted by his loving Uncle Bobbie and Aunt Emilou, Creevy, Crossgar ... Deeply regretted by his loving Aunt and Uncle, and Cousin James, LIZZIE AND THOMAS PATTERSON, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar.


CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 03:16:24 AM »
Maybe this from the Belfast Telegraph of 6 April 1936 is related as well?

CAMPBELL - April 5, 1936, at the Children's Hospital, Falls Road, Alexander (Alex.), dearly-beloved eldest son of Thomas and Eileen Campbell.  Funeral from his parents' residence, 24 Jocelyn Gardens, Belfast, on to-morrow (Tuesday), 7th, at 2-30 p.m., for interment in Lissara Churchyard.  Ever remembered by his Grandparents, A. AND H. CAMPBELL, Killyleagh Street, Crossgar ...  Sadly missed by his Granny and Aunties, WINNIE, EVA, AND EDIE, 64 Castlereagh Street.  Also his Aunt and Uncle and Cousins, 12 Irwin Crescent.

The following is from the Belfast Telegraph of 21 June 1948:

91-YEAR OLD WIDOW KILLED BY CAR NEAR HER HOME.
Mrs. Elizabeth Jane Calvert, a widow aged 91 years, residing at Derryboy, was killed instantly on Sunday afternoon on the Crossgar-Killinchy road, at the entrance to the lane leading to her home.  She was crossing the road when she was struck by a motor-car.

CALVERT - June 20, 1948 (result of an accident), ELIZABETH JANE, in her 91st year, beloved mother of GEORGE CALVERT.  Funeral to-morrow (Tuesday), at 2 p.m., to Raffrey - Deeply regretted by her loving Son George, Derryboy, Crossgar; also Hugh and Verna, Canada ... Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Son and Daughter-in-law, Thomas and Belle Calvert, Derryboy, Crossgar ... Deeply regretted by her loving Daughter, Son-in-law and Grandchildren, Nellie, Thomas and Alexander. Hannah and Alexander Campbell, Crossgar ... Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Daughter and Son-in-law; also her Grandson (Jim), and his Wife (Mina), Elizabeth and Thomas Patterson ... CALVERT - June 20, 1948, at her residence, Derryboy, Crossgar, result of accident, ELIZABETH, wife of the late THOMAS CALVERT and beloved mother of WATSON CALVERT. - Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Son, Daughter-in-law and Grandchildren, Watson and Lily Calvert, 136 Ormeau Road, Belfast ... Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Son, Daughter-in-law and Grandchildren, James and Elizabeth Calvert, Ballygoskin ... Deeply regretted by her Son and Daughter-in-law, Harper and Margaret; also Grandchildren, Ruby, Elsie and Harper, 147 Donegall Avenue.


ruth12

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 05:26:14 PM »
You are a genius!!! All the obituaries are family I know about. The baby Tom actually died as a result of a fall into a cauldron of hot water when he was being watched by Cissie Ritchie. My gran couldn't talk about it without crying even with the passage of time. I have just gotten home so haven't had time to peruse this all yet. I will look at the will for Thomas again and as I assume you are correct, as you are clearly so much better at this, I will need to adjust my Ancestry tree to which I had added William and James. I wish I had your skills but I'm certainly glad you are willing to help me. I will check everything you sent carefully.
Heather

ruth12

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 05:46:56 PM »

To CMcG
Something unusual/coincidental happened in past three days. I got a new dna match, a lady from Alberta, Canada. Her maternal side is all Canadian. However, her grandparents are from N.Ireland. I find out they are from Crossgar. Apparently the grandfather, James McClements, is from Crossgar. He was already in Alberta in the early 1900s, returned to Ireland and enlisted. His birthdate is 5th November 1895. Apparently after the war he married a Margaret Anne Reid(in 1918)....I did find the marriage certificate and she names her father as William Reid. Also, apparently, Maggie told the Alberta family she had a brother who died in the war (not sure which one but assume WW1) and another sister. James had a brother Robert in Crossgar. Also, my dna contact told me an aunt in Canada had contacted some relative in Crossgar whose last name is Patterson. I am well aware of my Patterson connection and of course with your help, my Margaret Anne Reid relative. I'm quite confused. I share enough dna to be a third cousin. In fact I share twice as much dna with her as my known third cousins that I can confirm. However, I have poured my records and can't find a McClements relative from Crossgar. (my maternal GG was a McClements but from Belfast). And of course the Reid names are a big red flag. However, I can't connect my GG Margaret Anne Reid with any documentation to her grandmother. However, seems too much of a coincidence. I have found other Margaret Reid's, one with a father William, but I don't think they are mine. Even a point of view on this would help???
Thank you
Heather

CMcG

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Re: Thomas and Margaret Campbell, Crossgar 1874...help please?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2019, 11:59:06 PM »
So if I understand corrrectly, it looks like my assumption about the 1918 marriage (at reply #5) was correct.

The easy answer is that Maggie Ann Reid born about 4 years into the marriage of William John Reid and Margaret Ann (Brown) Campbell was indeed their daughter.  Certainly she thought she was, when one considers how she identified herself at the time of her marriage in 1918 and 10 years prior to that when she registered the death of Margaret Ann (Brown Campbell) Reid.

If we assume that her birth c.1893 might simply have been unregistered (estimates vary, but some suggest that unregistered rural births for that era could be up to 15%), then the only sticking point is that word 'GrandDaughter' in the 1901 census return for house #5 in Killyleagh Street. I thought it was deliberate / knowing, but could it be that something simply got lost in translation when Constable McCaughey was visiting?  Or maybe that Margaret Ann (Brown Campbell) Reid was confused about her daughter because it was her second marriage? 

I can't yet see any sign of a brother (to Maggie Ann born c.1893) who died in the war or another sister, again maybe something got lost in translation. But IMHO the DNA is hard to argue against.