Author Topic: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!  (Read 396 times)

Jontycalvert

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Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« on: March 27, 2019, 09:23:38 PM »
Hi all, really need some help and/or advice.
We are doing our family tree and are completely stuck when it has come to some of my partners Irish relatives. We are unable to locate any references or documents with reference to a whole generation of her family.
Her Grandma, Winifred Mcbride was born 11 November 1925, we can find no record of this.  Winifred had  sister Margaret, born 1927, no record of this.  She also had 3 brothers, Edward, George and Patrick, and we can find no evidence of their birth.
Their father was John Mcbride, who we believe died in the late 1950's, and lived in Abyssinia Street at the time of his death. We do have a possible source of info on him as we have found one of Margaret's relatives and are waiting to speak to her about him.
Their mother we believe to be a Helen/Ellen Devlin who was married to John (cant find record of this either), unfortunately that is all we have on her.  The relative we have found mentioned above has no information relating to Ellen other than she died when she was young. which would be around late 40's early 50's.
Any help, advice or ideas on how to move forward would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance
Jonathan


CMcG

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2019, 09:53:54 PM »

... Their mother we believe to be a Helen/Ellen Devlin who was married to John (cant find record of this either), unfortunately that is all we have on her ...


Their marriage registration is available to view online from GRONI (pay to view), it took place on 29 November 1924 and was registered in Belfast district.  Their childrens' birth registrations are not available online, as they are not over 100 years old, you would need to visit GRONI or PRONI premises in Belfast to view them:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/


Jontycalvert

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2019, 10:10:58 PM »
Their marriage registration is available to view online from GRONI (pay to view), it took place on 29 November 1924 and was registered in Belfast district.  Their childrens' birth registrations are not available online, as they are not over 100 years old, you would need to visit GRONI or PRONI premises in Belfast to view them:

Thank you so much for this. We did wonder about the 100 year rule. So if we pay for GRONI we will see the wedding certificate for John and Ellen? I only ask as we have no info at all on her or him.  Just would love to find out more about them somehow.
Again thank you so much

CMcG

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2019, 10:15:11 PM »
Yes, you can view the marriage registration online, when you find it, select the 'full' viewing option to see the original document, it will cost £2.50, both partys' addresses and fathers' names and occupations should be recorded.


Jontycalvert

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2019, 10:21:00 PM »
Yes, you can view the marriage registration online, when you find it, select the 'full' viewing option to see the original document, it will cost £2.50, both partys' addresses and fathers' names and occupations should be recorded.


Thank you so much again for your help .we really do appreciate it.

CMcG

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2019, 10:46:37 PM »
I have a birth registration (below - free to view) for John McBride, I've seen a transcription of his baptism record in a subscription website which was annotated later with a comment to say that he married Ellen Devlin in 1924.  He was baptised in Peter's RC church Belfast on 17 December 1895 with a birth date given as 14 December, parents stated as John McBride and Margaret Higins of 1 Belgrade Street.  His birth registration gives his birth date as 1 March 1896, probably just a late registration.   

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02186/1827287.pdf



Jontycalvert

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 09:48:13 PM »
This looks like widowed Margaret McBride and her children living with an Ellen McAneany in Theodore Street in the 1911 census:


Thank you so much for your help. you have given us the leg up we needed.
Thanks again.
By the way, which subscription site had the baptism thing for John Mcbride that referred to his marriage to Ellen that you mentioned.

thanks for all your help.

CMcG

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2019, 01:13:34 AM »
The baptism record was on the 'RootsIreland' website, it was a transcription rather than a digitised original document, but I've seen similar examples of the original registers before and what the priest typically does at the time of a marriage is to turn up the original baptism entry in the register and add a comment, usually in very small writing to the right hand side of the entry, so say whom and when the person married (and which church, if not in that church).


CMcG

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2019, 01:41:14 AM »
I didn't have the same luck with Ellen Devlin, in terms of something clear cut (like an amended baptismal record) to identify the correct one. But I did wonder about this one born in 1901, for no other reason than her mother was called Winifred (ie. maybe a naming pattern?), her father was called Samuel, so if that doesn't match the father's name in the 1924 marriage, you can disregard immediately:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01935/1748840.pdf

If the father's name Samuel is a match, here are the parents marriage and relevant 1901 and 1911 census records for the above Ellen Devlin (BTW, Ellen Brown in the following census records is Winifred Kearney's sister, Winifred died about a fortnight after daughter Ellen was born in 1901):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10595/5859955.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Falls/Marchioness_Street/951899/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Falls/Conway_Street/154730/

But even if the father's name Samuel does match, it's still not conclusive, so just to note.


Elwyn

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2019, 12:38:07 PM »
     The discrepancy between Johnís birthdate on his baptism (14th December 1895) and his birth certificate (1st March 1896) will likely be because (as CMcG has touched on) it was registered late.  There was a penalty for late birth registration.  You were supposed to register it within something like 3 weeks of the birth but many people didnít get around to it within the time limit. Unlike today, there was no child allowance to claim so no real urgency to register it straight away. When they did finally register it, parents often changed the childís date of birth to one that didnít incur a penalty.  It was quite common, and looks to have happened with John.
 
Elwyn

Jontycalvert

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2019, 03:22:44 PM »
I didn't have the same luck with Ellen Devlin, in terms of something clear cut (like an amended baptismal record) to identify the correct one. But I did wonder about this one born in 1901, for no other reason than her mother was called Winifred (ie. maybe a naming pattern?), her father was called Samuel, so if that doesn't match the father's name in the 1924 marriage, you can disregard immediately:


Hi and full marks to you. 
After you advised us where the record was we spent £5 ( so we could view 2 records ) and viewed the marriage certificate.  Her father was Samuel and it was indeed the one you refer to in your last message.  We then added them to my partners tree on Ancestry.  The usual incorrect stuff came up BUT so did WW1 records for him that gave us loads of info that confirmed him and Ellen to be the correct ones.  So thank you so much.
We then used our remaining balance to view Winifred's death certificate. This confirmed the family and linked in with all the army records.  it all kind of explained why not much was known about Ellen and her ancestors as it seems she was brought up by Winifreds sister whom you refer to. AND the person everyone thought was her Mam was in fact not!!

So thank you so much, we now have loads of new avenues to pursue and have stopped tearing our hair out ( for the time being!!!!! )


Jontycalvert

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Re: Devlin and Mcbride, Belfast. Tearing our hair out!!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2019, 03:24:33 PM »
     The discrepancy between Johnís birthdate on his baptism (14th December 1895) and his birth certificate (1st March 1896) will likely be because (as CMcG has touched on) it was registered late.  There was a penalty for late birth registration.  You were supposed to register it within something like 3 weeks of the birth but many people didnít get around to it within the time limit. Unlike today, there was no child allowance to claim so no real urgency to register it straight away. When they did finally register it, parents often changed the childís date of birth to one that didnít incur a penalty.  It was quite common, and looks to have happened with John.

hey

thanks for that, very interesting and we did wonder why it would happen. 
we were looking and wondering if it could have been different people but obviously from what you say was a common thing.

thanks for taking the time to respond.