Author Topic: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland  (Read 935 times)

White dee

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Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« on: May 19, 2019, 08:55:15 PM »


Bishop warns Northern Ireland education system is 'unraveling' He certainly has a point,

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/bishop-warns-northern-ireland-education-system-is-unraveling-38126172.html

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James James

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2019, 05:54:00 PM »
"14 May, 2019"
http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/05/14/news/patrick-kielty-calls-for-end-to-segregated-education-in-northern-ireland-1619835/

"Patrick Kielty calls for end to segregated education in Northern Ireland"

"Paddy Kielty pictured while speaking at Ulster University today."


Quote,...

Paddy Kielty has called for an end to segregation of education along religious lines in Northern Ireland.

An outsider like Good Friday Agreement peace talks chairman George Mitchell should be introduced to overhaul the country's divided schooling system, the broadcaster and comedian said.

He criticised "casual sectarianism" and "tribalism" which characterises parts of society.

Kielty said:

"I think we really have to address education, segregated education, and I think that as a society we kind of have to start calling out that casual sectarianism.

"Whenever we had peace here we thought if we move on to a Glaswegian level of sectarianism that is fine, so we only hate each other every week when we go to football.

"That is not good enough. The tribalism of that is not good enough."

He addressed an Ulster University event in Belfast focusing on sectarianism.

Most Catholic children are educated at church-run schools while Protestants go to those overseen by the state.

Only a minority attend facilities where the two denominations are integrated.

Kielty said:

"Now I think here, integrated education, the term is insulting.

"Around the rest of the world that is called education.

"What we have in this country is segregated education."

He paid tribute to the "brilliant" work of teachers but said people felt those high standards were enough and did not tackle the underlying division.

"The natural platform of mixing and realising that we are exactly the same and having a school that has got a rugby team and a GAA team, you don't have to go to that school if you like GAA.

"There are just certain things that we really need to have a look at and I am not sure that we are necessarily ready for it."

He said changing the system would have to be done by an international figure like former senator Mitchell.

"Once we actually get through it we will go, 'gee why didn't we do that before now?', but it is a difficult one," said Kielty.

He said social media contributed to the lack of exposure to different views.

"Your own opinion is folded back into yourself on the screen every day," he said.

"More than ever we actually have to put the screen down and make an effort to realise that we are the same.

"We talk too much about difference here.

"You are either a British person living on the island of Ireland or you are an Irish person who is currently actually in the UK.

"You are actually a bit of both.

"The minute that we accept that that is going to move in a fluid way, and it is perfectly fine to be a bit of both, that is kind of where we need to be."

BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 09:48:25 PM »
 
   Kielty said:

"Now I think here, integrated education, the term is insulting.

"Around the rest of the world that is called education.

"What we have in this country is segregated education." 

You have RELIGIOUSLY Segregated Education in IRELAND    -----  Yet there is a call for  UNITED IRELAND from some quarters.     :o ???

 Is the hypocrisy of this situation , not obvious  :) :D .

 Schools are for Educating  the MIND ==============   CHURCHES / CHAPELS, are for Educating the SOUL, in whatever Religion

 
or Cult, that you happen to believe in.
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GandT

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 09:09:59 PM »
 
   Kielty said:

"Now I think here, integrated education, the term is insulting.

"Around the rest of the world that is called education.

"What we have in this country is segregated education." 

You have RELIGIOUSLY Segregated Education in IRELAND    -----  Yet there is a call for  UNITED IRELAND from some quarters.     :o ???

 Is the hypocrisy of this situation , not obvious  :) :D .

 Schools are for Educating  the MIND ==============   CHURCHES / CHAPELS, are for Educating the SOUL, in whatever Religion

 
or Cult, that you happen to believe in.


The soul, mind and body are the religious and spiritual realms of our being. The soul is not some rarefied entity in splendid isolation from the corporeal world. As for rank hypocrisy - perhaps much of that is in an attempt to lay the bulk of the blame for a politically, socially and governmentally unstable entity from the outset on schools [Catholic and Controlled]. Why in the name of God would anyone change their views on the importance of Catholic [or Christian] ethos in schools because of superficial and lightweight input by pople like Paddy Keilty, Barry McGuigan and Liam Neeson? The bishop is presenting [correctly] a much more complex and multi-faceted set of reasons for pressure on ALL schools - and that also includes the integrated sector. He actually commends the growing process of shared education as opposed to an artificially inflated and colossally over-stated notion of an integrated schools system [an entirely different matter] and the latter would espouse a Christian ethos in any case so they are not devoid of a faith ethos.

Our system is misrepresented as one of the best in the British Isles. It is if you look only at certain results by certain pupils - as an overall system of provision, it has one of the longest tails [actually it may be the worst] of underachievement in Europe. Its already stuttering and staggering attainment is being compounded by underfunding. The highest attaining sector [at all levels and across all comparable socio-economic backgrounds] is the Catholic sector; that has to have some underlying reason other than mere human, physical, infrastructural and material resources. Something distinctive and animating in its ethos.

BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 09:26:42 PM »
The soul, mind and body are the religious and spiritual realms of our being. The soul is not some rarefied entity in splendid isolation from the corporeal world. As for rank hypocrisy - perhaps much of that is in an attempt to lay the bulk of the blame for a politically, socially and governmentally unstable entity from the outset on schools [Catholic and Controlled]. Why in the name of God would anyone change their views on the importance of Catholic [or Christian] ethos in schools because of superficial and lightweight input by pople like Paddy Keilty, Barry McGuigan and Liam Neeson? The bishop is presenting [correctly] a much more complex and multi-faceted set of reasons for pressure on ALL schools - and that also includes the integrated sector. He actually commends the growing process of shared education as opposed to an artificially inflated and colossally over-stated notion of an integrated schools system [an entirely different matter] and the latter would espouse a Christian ethos in any case so they are not devoid of a faith ethos.

Our system is misrepresented as one of the best in the British Isles. It is if you look only at certain results by certain pupils - as an overall system of provision, it has one of the longest tails [actually it may be the worst] of underachievement in Europe. Its already stuttering and staggering attainment is being compounded by underfunding. The highest attaining sector [at all levels and across all comparable socio-economic backgrounds] is the Catholic sector; that has to have some underlying reason other than mere human, physical, infrastructural and material resources. Something distinctive and animating in its ethos.

  What are you'll afraid of exactly  ???

 This is a typical diatribe, that one gets from the followers of  Saint Francis Xavier ; when Secular Integrated Education is discussed.   :)

 Give me the children until they are seven and anyone may have them afterward.– Saint Francis Xavier
 
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Bigali

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2019, 11:05:09 PM »
I went to a co religion grammar school in the late seventies , I don’t see what the big fuss is all about  ???
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BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 12:10:41 AM »
I went to a co religion grammar school in the late seventies , I don’t see what the big fuss is all about  ???

   O0 O0

 Same here, but in the late 50's  :)
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gray_marian

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 02:37:21 PM »
  What are you'll afraid of exactly  ???

 This is a typical diatribe, that one gets from the followers of  Saint Francis Xavier ; when Secular Integrated Education is discussed.   :)


Completely agree Blooms instead of embracing change for the better IMO, some religions appear to be running scared!! My own children went to non denominational schools [one of which was in Co.Wicklow, where the families of Jewish, Buddhism, Catholic, Church of Ireland and atheist parents learned] Now my grandchildren do so too, where they like their parents learn about other religions, different cultures and their cuisine, the more the merrier. It would never have entered my family's thoughts to ask what religion anyone was. Forty five years ago my then 5yr old sister was asked what she wanted to be when she was older. She replied 'a Protestant' which made us all smile, when asked why she replied, so that she could attend the same school as her best friend.  :D '' Out of the mouths of babes'' eh!

GandT

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 03:04:03 PM »
I went to a co religion grammar school in the late seventies , I don’t see what the big fuss is all about  ???


You are right. There are several of what you call 'co-religion' schools [grammar and non-grammar] developing across NI. This is what I referred to as 'integrated' or 'shared' education. It is an organic and natural enough combination of pupils, parents, resources and finance factors etc. that evolve and derive from local circumstances and I note that you refer to it as a 'co-religion' school where clearly people opted to go and preferred to go. Preference is different from choice and I won't go into that here.

Parental preference is clearly demonstrated in bums on seats in terms of the sectors their children attend. Foisting a system of 'integrated schools' upon people is very different from allowing the development of 'shared' or 'integrated education'. 40+ years of existence; preferential promotion by statutory statement; advertising; bland statements by non-entities with 'celebrity' status; some very genuinely committed and honourable people; preferential visits by the great and the good; successive polls with soft 'yes' questions; a lot of overt political support [Alliance and others] as well as some tacit support [or at least broad acquiescence or indifference] by SF for integrated education. Net result - 7% of children at integrated schools. I think that illustrates that there are more things at work in parental choice than mere proximity and easy option for the nearest school.

Our system is not failing or unravelling because of the religious make-up of it schools [and even our integrated schools subscribe to Christian as opposed to neutral or simply secular ethos], it is unravelling because of Tory cuts and the in-built fault lines in its addiction to stark socio-economic division by an outmoded system of academic selection. The latter, by the way, is the singular religious failure in our collective system;  true Christianity implies equal opportunity, equal access, equal facilities etc. The Churches [all of them] aren't too fussed on enacting the counter-cultural views when well-heeled, articulate and powerful middle-class parents luxuriate in their little selective system that for decades upon decades upon decades has been churning out a long, long tail of underachievement - the Emperor's new clothes syndrome operates until the negative impacts express themselves in ways that will thoroughly disadvantage all of society.

That is the big question. But by all means, let us pretend that the faults lie with the Catholic schools or the Controlled Schools and leave all the others out of it!

BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 09:14:32 PM »
You are right. There are several of what you call 'co-religion' schools [grammar and non-grammar] developing across NI. This is what I referred to as 'integrated' or 'shared' education. It is an organic and natural enough combination of pupils, parents, resources and finance factors etc. that evolve and derive from local circumstances and I note that you refer to it as a 'co-religion' school where clearly people opted to go and preferred to go. Preference is different from choice and I won't go into that here.

Parental preference is clearly demonstrated in bums on seats in terms of the sectors their children attend. Foisting a system of 'integrated schools' upon people is very different from allowing the development of 'shared' or 'integrated education'. 40+ years of existence; preferential promotion by statutory statement; advertising; bland statements by non-entities with 'celebrity' status; some very genuinely committed and honourable people; preferential visits by the great and the good; successive polls with soft 'yes' questions; a lot of overt political support [Alliance and others] as well as some tacit support [or at least broad acquiescence or indifference] by SF for integrated education. Net result - 7% of children at integrated schools. I think that illustrates that there are more things at work in parental choice than mere proximity and easy option for the nearest school.

Our system is not failing or unravelling because of the religious make-up of it schools [and even our integrated schools subscribe to Christian as opposed to neutral or simply secular ethos], it is unravelling because of Tory cuts and the in-built fault lines in its addiction to stark socio-economic division by an outmoded system of academic selection. The latter, by the way, is the singular religious failure in our collective system;  true Christianity implies equal opportunity, equal access, equal facilities etc. The Churches [all of them] aren't too fussed on enacting the counter-cultural views when well-heeled, articulate and powerful middle-class parents luxuriate in their little selective system that for decades upon decades upon decades has been churning out a long, long tail of underachievement - the Emperor's new clothes syndrome operates until the negative impacts express themselves in ways that will thoroughly disadvantage all of society.

That is the big question. But by all means, let us pretend that the faults lie with the Catholic schools or the Controlled Schools and leave all the others out of it!

Methinks that thou doth protest , tooo mucheth.  ::) :whistle:
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Dot/dash

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2019, 11:14:02 AM »
Methinks that thou doth protest , tooo mucheth.  ::) :whistle:

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James James

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 11:13:57 PM »

GandT

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2019, 11:30:08 AM »
Methinks that thou doth protest , tooo mucheth.  ::) :whistle:


'Out. out, damned spot'!

No, just making the point that much of what is attributed by way of fault to our present system and much of what is claimed for the highly notional idea of integrated schools is 'such stuff as dreams are made on'.

In any case and I know you will be back with some Shakespearean rejoinder

'Lay on, Macduff and damned be he who first cries "Hold, enough!"'

James James

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2019, 01:16:46 PM »
"Barry McGuigan on BBC's 'This Week' "                 https://youtu.be/qRUKzyctYVo

"Barry McGuigan presents a powerful piece for Integrated Education"


BLOOMFIELD

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Re: Education unraveling in Northern Ireland
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 09:06:35 PM »
'Out. out, damned spot'!

No, just making the point that much of what is attributed by way of fault to our present system and much of what is claimed for the highly notional idea of integrated schools is 'such stuff as dreams are made on'.

In any case and I know you will be back with some Shakespearean rejoinder

'Lay on, Macduff and damned be he who first cries "Hold, enough!"'

 
 
 “ You speak an infinite deal of nothing.”

 
“ Dreams can come true “

“The past is a place of reference, not a place of residence; the past is a place of learning, not a place of living. 

 
Can you not answer my question    -------------- " What are you'll afraid of exactly "    
 
 

 
 
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