Author Topic: Co Armagh query  (Read 400 times)

Caz1962

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Co Armagh query
« on: May 28, 2019, 08:33:37 AM »
hello .. Can any of your help with this query which is, I know, outside of Belfast ?
I am looking for any info of relatives who lived in a small village called Camlough near Newry in Co Armagh between  approx 1750 and 1850.
Anyone know the best library or other resource in that area as hope to visit N Ireland next year and would be good to also find out about that historic period in that area .

Caz


Elwyn

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 09:05:51 AM »
You can find Camlough easily enough on Google maps. Just enter Camlough and Armagh. It's about 40 to 50 miles south of Belfast.

Armagh City library has a local studies section which includes books about life in the county in earlier times, as well as old newspapers. For official records, they are mostly kept in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. But some later records eg censuses, statutory births, deaths & marriages and Roman Catholic baptisms & marriages are on-line, so the answer about where to search can depend on what you are looking for and what denomination your ancestors were.

Don’t expect too much for someone living in Armagh in the 1700s. Very few records exist from that period. Looking at the church records for Camlough, the Church of Ireland’s records start in 1832, Methodist 1830, Presbyterian 1854, RC Dromintee 1853, RC Lower Killeavy 1835 & RC Upper Killeavy 1832. The RC records should be on-line on the nli site.

https://registers.nli.ie

For the remainder there are copies in PRONI in Belfast. A personal visit is required to access those.
 
 
Elwyn

Caz1962

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 06:47:44 PM »
Elwyn - thanks so much for all this ! A genealogy pal said the Belfast forum crowd were a helpful bunch and you certainly are ! The family surname was Graham and they came from Scotland in the mid 1750’s  so were Presbyterian I think . Most of them returned to Scotland a century later except for my direct ancestor who married an S Irish Catholic woman and moved to SW England. Will explore all the suggestions and yes, am sure I won’t find too much from the early days .

JimG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 09:43:44 PM »

To make a start you will find Grahams in the Camlough area in the civil parish of Killevy / Killeavy in the 1901 and 1911 Ireland Census there are 34  in 1901 and 36 in 1911 Camlough area is within ireland see  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie
heres an example from 1901
2 in Divernagh (Camlough, Armagh)
Show all information
Surname   Forename   Age   Sex   Relation to head   Religion   Birthplace   Occupation   Literacy   Irish Language   Marital Status   Specified Illnesses
Graham Alexander 48 Male Head of Family Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmer Read and rite - Married -
Graham Jane Eliza 39 Female Wife Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Wife Read and rite - Married -
Graham Samuel 17 Male Son Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Son Read and rite - Not Married -
Graham Mary Jane 15 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Daughter Read and rite - Not Married -
Graham Lizzie 13 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Daughter Read and rite - - -
Graham Martha 11 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Daughter Read and rite - - -
Graham Sarah 9 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Daughter Read and rite - - -
Graham Susan 6 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh Farmers Daughter Read and rite - - -
Graham Maggie 8 Female Daughter Presbyterian Co Armagh
Graham Sandy  Male Son Presbyterian Co Armagh - - -Gourley William 66 Male Boarder Presbiterian Co Armagh Living Privately Read and rite both - Not Married -
1911 gives how long married and children born and living
 
going further back in time

1864 Grahams listed detailed land and house and mapped in Griffiths valuation.   
1864 Griffiths valuation has three sources
1. https://www.failteromhat.com for quick index. 
 Graham   James      Carnagat Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Sarah      Clogharevan   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Thomas   Clogharevan   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   John      Cloghreagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Robert      Derrywilligan   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Levingston   Drumilly   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   James      Duvernagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   John, Sr.   Duvernagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Joseph      Duvernagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Margaret   Duvernagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Sarah      Duvernagh   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   David      Eshwary   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Samuel   Eshwary   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   William   Eshwary   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Robert      Glassdrummond Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   William   Glassdrummond Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   James      Latt Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Mary      Latt Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Robert      Latt Contd   Killevy   Armagh
Graham   Cornelius   Lissaraw   Killevy   Armagh
2. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ for detail and map ref .
3. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books since 1864 allows you to connect land to 1901 census etc

Camlough DED covers
•   Aghmabane
•   Ballara
•   Ballynalack
•   Camlough Village
•   Carrickbracken
•   Carrickcloghan
•   Carrickcruppin
•   Charlemont Square
•   Church Place
•   Cloughervan
•   College Square
•   Cross
•   Divernagh also spelt Duvernagh
•   Duburren
•   Eshwary
•   Fountain Street
•   Frederick Street
•   James Street
•   Keggall
•   Lislea
•   Lissaraw
•   Maghernahely
•   Mountcaulfield
•   Quarry Row
•   Sturgan
•   Thomas Street
•   Victoria Place
the above include Townlands and street names, those street names are I think all in Camlough.

you need a downloadable map showing the townlands urgently next, don’t be put off by townlands

you can start searching for relatives if you can identify a direct irish relative, the easier for us to help you further

JimG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 10:03:58 PM »

Part 2 going further back in time for Killevy civil parish
Graham, Alexander   - Townland: Divernagh (Hawkshaw) Year: 1835
Graham, Cornelius   - Townland: Divernagh (Hawkshaw) Year: 1835
Graham, David   - Townland: Esswary Year: 1835
Graham, George   - Townland: Divernagh (Whaley) Year: 1835
Graham, George   - Townland: Esswary Year: 1835
Graham, James   - Townland: Aghadavoil Year: 1835
Graham, James   - Townland: Divernagh (Whaley) Year: 1835
Graham, John      - Townland: Divernagh (Hawkshaw) Year: 1835
Graham, John      - Townland: Esswary Year: 1835
Graham, John      - Townland: Liseraw Year: 1835
Graham, Livingstone   - Townland: Carriffbawn Year: 1835
Graham, Samuel   - Townland: Mullochglass Year: 1835
Graham, Thos.      - Townland: Tullyhappy Year: 1835
Graham, W.      - Townland: Tullyhappy Year: 1835
Graham, Widow    - Townland: Maghernahely Year: 1835
Graham, William   - Townland: Carrickcruppen Year: 1835
Graham, William   - Townland: Divernagh (Whaley) Year: 1835
Graham, William   - Townland: Esswary Year: 1835

going further back to
1796 Flax growers of Ireland see https://www.failteromhat.com/flax/armagh.php
Graham                John                 Killevy               Armagh

all this without church or civil records for BMDs so far.
linking may well hit brickwalls etc
however hhave fun, your visit will be much more interesting the more you have

If i find an online downloadable TOWNLAND MAP OF KILLEVY i will be back so good luck in the meantime

Caz1962

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 11:17:04 PM »
Jim
Thank you SO much for going to all this trouble .
From what family lore suggests, the majority of the Graham family ( possible that flax grower is an ancestor ?) returned to Scotland around 1840/50 ish and my direct ancestor came to Dorset with his wife from Kilkenny . That’s not to say that a few remained so those Graham’s from 1901 and 1911 May well be related . I was particularly interested by the names John, George and William as they seem to be recurrent names in the family and the ones at Divernagh look worth exploring . My own relate was George and born in 1820 in Camlough I think . He had brothers called John , William and Robert and a couple were serving at some army base in Newry if anyone knows what might have been three in the 1800’s . Will see what maps I can find too ,
Was wondering what newspaper covered Camlough in that era of 1800 to 1850 ? That may have some reports .
Once again - thanks a lot for all the leads

CMcG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 10:49:47 AM »
If they specifically lived in the village of Camlough, as opposed to the more general vicinity / outlying areas, then just to note that Camlough for that era was quite tightly demarcated within the townland of Cross to the south (comprising the larger part of the village, ie. the school, the church, the mills and most of the dwellings), with the barracks, post office and a handful of dwellings within the townland of Carrickcroppan to the north (as shown below - the thick line is the townland boundary between them):



Beyond the confines of above snapshot (for that era), you are immediately out of the village and into open countryside punctuated with cottages, farms etc. Some links to Cross and Carrickcroppan are below, within them, neighbouring townlands are identified which you can navigate to:
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-upper/killevy-upper-orior-portion/cross/
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-upper/killevy-upper-orior-portion/carrickcroppan/

The online Griffiths Valuation website has maps that would originally date back to the 1830s-1840s, you can search for the placename Camlough here:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch

Note also the following from the Newry Telegraph of July 1835, as you can see, all was not sweetness and light, maybe this is the same William Graham mentioned by JimG at reply #4 above?




JimG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 11:44:37 AM »

Wow CMcG, a reason for troops to be stationed perhaps later in Newry?

I explored the move backwards in case of any clues . I can trace in 1881 England census at no 227 in the town of Weymouth and Melcombe Regis your George Graham b 1821 retired from Armagh m  Ann Graham from Kilkenny  that’s the only time Armagh is mentioned
1861  he is a Silk Traveller is with Ann in Little Minister St in Winchester
1851 A George Graham is a Dock porter and Ann dress maker b ireland 1826 are in Prince Edwin Lane Liverpool
1841 census by chance there is an entry for a Private George Graham b Ireland in Winchester Barracks  his regiment not mention but would be in Army lists and might mention going where in Ireland in following years the regiment going to Kilkenny would explain how they met. if they m in Ireland the marriage of soldiers often took place in the Church of Ireland rather than Catholic church.
so I searched further at Winchester barracks and there is also a Private James Graham b Ireland aged 25 so b 1816  an older brother perhaps

An excellent bmd source is https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ I tried for marriages and am not good enough with it so back to you.  I normally search ‘church records’ and then ‘civil records’

I found several marriages of a George Graham marrying an Anne before 1851 in https://www.freebmd.org.uk which doesn’t cover Ireland but none clicked as yet

so that didn’t get me anywhere yet. over to others please


Caz1962

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 07:37:43 PM »
Wow both of you - this just gets better ! Your newspaper cutting fits totally with family stories related to a local mob throwing stones at the house and breaking windows , with the children having to pick them up the next day in wheelbarrows . A couple of the sons were apparently in the army so that wouldn’t have gone down well .
Jim - I already knew about George becoming a silk traveller when he married Ann Kelly from Kilkenny but the idea he was in the army when he came to the SW might make sense so will get those records . I have seen the records of him and Ann in the UK but am interested in this chapter of N Irish history . The son who brought his father away from the mob may well have been George who would have been 15 then . Is the Newry Telegraph in the Newspaper Archive ?
As to where exactly their house was in. Am,pugh . am guessing from the newspaper report that it may have been near a pub in the Main Street . Hope that land search may prove ownership but am almost certain this family were my forebears .


JimG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 08:27:28 AM »
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/titles/newry-telegraph 10th july 1835
there is some form of follow up on the 11th july 1835 i didnt find another  newsletter title coverage

Caz1962

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2019, 07:17:53 AM »
Thanks Jim

Tried to find the follow-up but could only see the original skirmish report of the 10 July.
What I have done is research the history of the Ribbonmen and how they came about which has been interesting . Things are moving forward, thanks to you helpful forum folk

JimG

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Re: Co Armagh query
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2019, 09:09:10 AM »
i searched again for the 11th but didnt find it myself. i think it was an editorial general followup   to keep you upto date see also https://lhlibapp.qub.ac.uk/search/?searchtype=X&SORT=D&searcharg=camlough