Author Topic: Re: Bell/Lavery  (Read 605 times)

Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« on: June 13, 2019, 01:04:18 AM »
Hi. Hoping someone can help , I've hit a brick wall . My great great grandfather Charles Bell married Alice Jane Lavery 29.5.1870 in Glenavy age 20. His father is recorded as Abraham Bell. I have tried Irish Genealogy for any record of his birth circa 1850 but no joy. Any help would be greatly appreciated. (Alice died 1908 in Crosby Street Belfast but I think she must have been buried in Glenavy....not sure about Charles)

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 01:32:28 AM »
There will be no birth record for Charles as it predates civil registration of births.

Alice was indeed buried at Glenavy according to her 1908 death notice.



If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 02:27:54 AM »
Charles Bell died on 15 November 1922 and was also buried at Glenavy.



If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2019, 08:28:30 AM »
CMcG. Thank you so much. Your expertise in the subject and willingness to help never fails to impress me. I know Charles and Alice had my great great Grandfather Abraham in 1870 and he was born in Ballycessey Camlin. The Christian names Charles, Abraham seem to be a recurrent in my family tree. Cumberland Street also keeps appearing. May I ask how and where do you find the newspaper items?

Geraldine.

Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2019, 11:16:56 AM »
Sorry I meant my great grandfather Abraham. .got a bit carried away with the greats lol

JimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1562
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2019, 11:13:28 PM »

more material exists at
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1093.msg7982.html#msg7982
topic Bell Lavery Marno McBride Belfast/Glenavy
I have added all to this information into a draft tree for purposes of finding general agreement for the existing start for going back a generation or two to connect one day Camlin civil parish to its southern neighbour  Glenavy civil parish and with the parish neighbouring parish and even perhaps with any of these death/burial  records in Glenavy area www.ancestryireland.com/
Bell   John      1715   Glenavy   Antrim
Bell   Susanna   1719   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell   Allice [Alice]   1727   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell   Marmaduke   1729   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell   Anabel      1732   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell   Francis   1733   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell         1734   Glenavy   Antrim   
Bell   Elizabeth   1740   Glenavy   Antrim
Bell   Ann      1744   Glenavy    Antrim
Bell    Abraham   1763   Glenavy    Antrim

A draft tree - please correct anything I started trying to keep informants after fact as found but sometimes as two with same stopped altogether so in particular I better add in Otto you helped as did CMcG and relatives

1.. unknown father of  Abraham Bell bbb 1835
children
1.1. Abraham Bell bbb 1835
children
1.1.1. Charles Bell b ~1851 Co Antrim Carter in 1911 Co Antrim all C of I m  29th May 1870 in St Aidans  Alice Jane Lavery dau of Samuel residence 19,12,1870 at 8 Ballycessy, Camlin [ Samuel Lavery in Griffiths living at Ballydonaghy, Camlin
children
1.1.1.1. Abraham Bell 19 Dec 1870 actually at 19,12,1870 at 8 Ballycessy, Camlin
Ballygreevy given elsewhere Civil District  Antrim Sub District Crumlin County Antrim . Dock Labourer in 1911 ABRAHAM died on the 28/12/1934 at DONEGALL QUAY BELAST where he worked as assistant foreman.
m 1892-1894 by census 1911photo posted on Belfast forum photos board Charlotte Bunting ~1874 b  Maghergale residences Cupar St Cumberland St
children connected by katieb 13 sept 2006 belfast forum
..1.1.1.1.1. William Bell b~1895 Belfast City Roue Drawer in 1911 killed WW1 melv
..1.1.1.1.2. Eliza Bell b~1897 Belfast City   Roue Drawer in 1911   
..1.1.1.1.3. Sarah Jane Bell b~1901 Belfast City   connects to melv
..1.1.1.1.4. Abraham Bell b~1902 Belfast City m Agnes (nee Rodgers)..
..1.1.1.1.5. Charles   Bell b~1895 Belfast City
..1.1.1.1.6..Robert John Bell b~1903 Belfast City   
..1.1.1.1.7. Charlotte Bell b~1906 Belfast City
Charles’s family moved to 33  Forthingale Street around 1877
1.1.1.2. William James Bell b 17th April 1877. 33  Forthingale Street belfast
1.1.1.3. Charlotte Bell b 1881 33  Forthingale Street belfast
1.1.1.4. Charles Bell jn b 1883 painter in 1911 33  Forthingale Street belfast
1.1.1.5. Samuel Bell b 1886 50 Riga Street.
1.1.1.6.  Alice Bell b 1884 50 Riga Street.
1.1.1.7. Nelson Bell b 1888 50 Riga Street.

my best clues for Abrahams parents  are based on marriages from Ulster Historical Foundation’s website  www.ancestryireland.com showing father this is credit charging or subscription body.
ABRAHAM   BELL   1789   WILLIAM   Antrim   
ABRAHAM   BELL   1831   WILLIAM   Antrim   
ABRAHAM   BELL   1831   ABRAHAM   Antrim   
if it was a father named William then just possibly a William might connect
www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/griffiths-valuation/parish-of-camlin.php
Bell, Edward   L: Ballymacrevan
Bell, John   L: Ballygortgarve
Bell, William   L: Ballysessy
Bell, William John   L: Ballysessy
Bell, William Robert   L: Ballymacrevan
so good luck and onwards


Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 12:17:24 AM »
Thank you so much. Abraham Bell and Agnes Rodgers were my grandparents(maternal)
They were married in 1931 and they eloped! I have only recently began my journey on my family tree and still feeling my way. I am using My.heritage to record my tree and some matches are suggesting that Abraham Bell (Charles father) remarried to a Margaret Blades???. Once again thank you.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2019, 12:52:05 AM »

CMcG. Thank you so much. Your expertise in the subject and willingness to help never fails to impress me. I know Charles and Alice had my great great Grandfather Abraham in 1870 and he was born in Ballycessey Camlin. The Christian names Charles, Abraham seem to be a recurrent in my family tree. Cumberland Street also keeps appearing. May I ask how and where do you find the newspaper items?

Geraldine.


An online subscription archive Geraldine, however the optical character recognition search function can be unreliable, for example, there's no guarantee that the death notice for Charles Bell would come back simply by searching for 'Charles Bell', so for deaths I determine the date of death and then look in the death notices for the next day, then the day after, if no success then look for an 'in memoriam' notice on the first anniversary.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2019, 01:05:22 AM »
Thanks again for replying. I am going to have to organise myself better....I have notes and pieces of paper everywhere !. Still wet behind the ears but I am enjoying my journey. Appreciate your help and advice. Thanks

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 01:09:04 AM »

Thank you so much. Abraham Bell and Agnes Rodgers were my grandparents(maternal)
They were married in 1931 and they eloped! I have only recently began my journey on my family tree and still feeling my way. I am using My.heritage to record my tree and some matches are suggesting that Abraham Bell (Charles father) remarried to a Margaret Blades???. Once again thank you.


The problem I have with that Margaret Blades marriage is that it's not a great 'fit', it took place in Belfast, the address of both bride and groom was stated as Belfast, Abraham was recorded as a bachelor / previously unmarried, and his occupation was shown as cabinet maker, which is at odds with the father's occupation provided by Charles at the time of his 1870 marriage to Alice.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Geraldine1234

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 01:29:49 AM »
I understand now you've pointed it out to me. Poor great great Granda Charles...I was giving him a stepmother and loads of half brothers and sisters. The posts you attached were great especially reading that two other forum members share the Bell/Lavery connection.

Geraldine

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 02:46:17 AM »
I imagine the William John Bell in the third marriage down (below) might be a brother of Charles Bell (note the groom's address in particular):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10855/5963681.pdf

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 10:16:38 AM »
Still focusing on that address of 50 Riga Street, note the following, the will for which can be read online:

The Will of Eliza Bell late of Hopefield Belfast Spinster who died 29 August 1884 at 50 Riga-street Belfast was proved at Belfast by Thomas Sinclair of Hopefield Belfast J.P. the sole Executor.

The will describes Charles Bell as a nephew, as does the death registration (below), which also confirms that Eliza was a spinster born c. 1830, so presumably Eliza was a sister of Abraham, as was the Mary Anne Bell of Crumlin whom she describes as a sister in the will?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06317/4811681.pdf

You can find and read the will here:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx 

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8345
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 11:13:06 AM »

I imagine the William John Bell in the third marriage down (below) might be a brother of Charles Bell (note the groom's address in particular):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10855/5963681.pdf


William John Bell (above) can be seen here in the 1901 and 1911 censuses at 12 James St. (note that address - the street directories available online show him there at least back to 1890:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/James_s_Street/948903/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Shankill/James_Street/151841/

I've found several graves relating to these folk in the Belfast City Council website (can post if you like), but one grave occupant that caught my attention (because of the unusual surname) was this one - again, note the last residence:
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6549.1147 

The death registration states that she was the widow of Matthew McBath, more critically, the informant was one 'William John Bell Brother':
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06108/4743489.pdf

So another sibling of Charles Bell?  Well apparently so, for she married twice and you can read for yourself the father's details in each one:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10946/8000704.pdf

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10816/5944675.pdf (McBath spelt McBeigh, Watt is Waite)

I searched for a civil birth for Sarah, for the reported age at death suggested the offchance that she might have scraped in after the introduction of civil registration (if so, that would have confirmed the mother's maiden name, ie. Abraham Bell's wife), but alas I couldn't see anything (the 1883 marriage said 'full age' for her, so I would guess born 1861/2).

But to recap for now, it's looking like Charles Bell had a brother William John and a sister Sarah, while the father Abraham had sisters Eliza and Mary Anne.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

JimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1562
Re: Bell/Lavery
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2019, 11:16:26 AM »
Geraldine, a present for for your new filing system
from the online guide  PRONI Guide to Church Records

CAMLIN, CO. ANTRIM
Church of ireland. [Camlin parish is part of the benefice of Glenavy – see under GLENAVY]
Methodist  Crumlin (Ballymena and Antrim Circuit) Baptisms, 1829-c.1880; membership register, 1826-c.1880; minutes of leaders’ and stewards’ meetings, 1855c.1880; circuit schedule book, 1860-79. [Crumlin may be included in all or some of these circuit records]  MIC1E/58
Presbtyerian. Crumlin Baptisms, 1838-1913; marriages, 1846-1936; marriage notices, 1879-1977;communicants’ roll, 1889-1928; minutes and accounts of session and committee, 1840-67; committee minutes, 1883-1964; session minutes, 1904-51. MIC1P/125; CR3/64
Roman Catholic Glenavy and Killead
 [Camlin parish forms part of the Roman Catholic district of Glenavy – see under GLENAVY]
MIC1P/125; CR3/64

GLENAVY, CO. ANTRIM
Church of ireland. Glenavy (Connor diocese) [Includes also Camlin and Tullyrusk]
Baptisms, 1707-1908; marriages, 1707-1856, 1857-64 and 1874-1915; burials, 1707-1918; vestry minutes, 1707-1884; tithe applotments, 1826-7; census of united parishes of Glenavy, Camlin and Tullyrusk, taken in 1856-7 but revised in1858-9 and 1873; communicants and confirmations, 1814-24 and 1886-97.  MIC583/1,7;,MIC1/43-44B; CR1/53
Registers of vestrymen, 1870-.   In local custody
[note SAM melv wrote 2006 Abraham buried at St Aidens in Glenavy but i could never find the grave and i know that the church records were destroyed by fire around 1935 (1838) see also http://lisburn.com/churches/Lisburn-churches/glenavy-st-aidans.html which adds is a union of the churches of St Aidan’s, Glenavy, St Andrew’s, Tunny and St John’s, Crumlin. So perhaps some records survived elsewhere eg Dublin]
Methodist. Glenavy (Antrim and Glenavy Circuit)Baptisms, 1879-c.1900; annual report, 1899; register of members, 1879-91; minute book of leaders and stewards, 1879-87; circuit schedule book, 1880-94.MIC1E/58     Marriages, 1881-.In local custody
Presbtyerian.. Dundrod Baptisms, 1829-1950; marriages, 1829
1930; marriage notices,1932-93; session minutes,1829-91;details of collection and distribution of money to the poor, 1829-46. MIC1P/416; CR3/64
Roman Catholic Glenavy and Killead (Down and Connor
diocese)[Includes the parishes of Glenavy,Killead, Camlin and part of Ballinderry]
Baptisms, 1849-81; marriages, 1848-83.
MIC1D/63
[items italicised are are unusual to find attached this way. The Census on microfilm could be useful] A visit is needed or someone on your behalf?
good luck on your quest