Author Topic: Looking for the parents of David Anderson, son of John, living in Belfast  (Read 938 times)

tonyt071

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I am completely stuck trying to find the parents of David Anderson b~1858-1860, Belfast - The census records ages imply a dob of 1858 to 1860

David married Martha Lockhart Doherty (b1967, Belfast) in Berry Street Church on 25 Dec 1889, residence is shown as Broadway Belfast and they later lived in 90 Emerson St, Shankhill in 1901 and 17 Drumnadrough, Whitehouse in 1911. Religion is shown as Plymouth Brethren or un-denominated and the church is Presbyterian

David and Martha had a son James Doherty Anderson who is my ancestor - born 9 Apr 1896

From the marriage certificate, David's father is John, a labourer, (my guess) born around 1835 (or later), and I dont know David's mother's name. How can I narrow down to finding his parents please? I can see the Berry Street Church records (now St Enoch's) are not online.

I am not allowed to post external links but could post screen shots as required

I would be most grateful for any local insights please. Thank you

Elwyn

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I note that in the 1901 census David gives his place of birth as Co. Antrim, whereas his children were recorded as “City of Belfast.” To me that indicates he was born outside Belfast. Likewise for his wife Martha L, also born Co. Antrim, who I can see was born in Carrickfergus on 19.1.1867 to William Dogherty and Elizabeth Montgomery.
 
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Emerson_Street/948452/
 
Tracing David’s origins will be harder because was born before the start of statutory registration in 1864. Without some idea of where he was baptised it could be tricky to trace him. And if he was baptised Brethren you really will struggle because none of their records are in the public domain.
 
Elwyn

tonyt071

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Thank you, I need to find David's baptism....

James Doherty Anderson, son of David, married Catherine Mary Meehan, at Spamount congregational church, Belfast 26 Aug 1921.

On Martha's side of the family, her sister Jane married St Anne's church of Ireland, Shankill 1 Jan 1899. Finally Martha's father, William Hugh Doherty, was baptised at Aghalee, Antrim 13 May 1838 and married at Joymount Presbyterian church, Carrickfurgus

Does any of this detail help in my search please?

Elwyn

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     Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so Spamount Congregational was probably the Meehan family church.  Likewise St Anne’s indicates that the Doherty family  were Church of Ireland.  William Doherty married at Joymount Presbyterian. So his wife was probably Presbyterian. It doesn’t tell us which church the Andersons attended. But I think that varied because my opinion is they moved into Belfast from somewhere else in Co. Antrim. There’s no obvious way of saying where that was from the information you have at present.
 
David was Brethren (at least in 1901 & 1911). Many Brethren were originally Presbyterians, and some converted following the great religious revival of 1859 (which was particularly strong in Co Antrim). So he might have been baptised Presbyterian. But there’s a couple of hundred Presbyterian churches in Co. Antrim. If you don’t know where he was baptised it’s a needle in the haystack. If instead, the family were Brethren when David was born, then there are no baptism records to search.  Overall I’d say you may struggle to find out where and when he was born.
 
Elwyn

JimG

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Hi both

PRONI online Guide to Church records
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records
P. Berry Street Baptisms, 1869-1984; marriages, 1869-1912, with indexes, 1869-1974. MIC1P/56 Printed history, 1769-1969. CR/3/34
[see also St Enoch’s]
P. St Enoch’s Baptisms, 1853-1904 [up to 1876 this congregation was in Berry Street]; marriages, 1852-1907. MIC1P/21
at same site entries exist for Broadway Presbyterian
so the original marriage details exist,  is this where you found Broadway  Have you checked for Baptisms?

I search quickly and unsuccessfully  PRONI directories to 1900 without luck for Broadway, Emerson st .   Thereafter I tried quickly  http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk .eg 1912
As he did appear with occupation Dyer so I thought he probably worked at Broadway Damask.  I kept looking for anderson dyer somewhere I noticed and did not note down was an Anderson, D yarn drier  and wondered drier dyer. I am sure you looked at 1911 census where I added on  three more cousins
Emmie [Eanie error] Jane Anderson b~1902-3   1911 census hand written version its Emmie
William John Anderson b~1905-6   
Richard L Anderson b~1906-7   
[size=78%]keep going perhaps one of your cousins will come forward [/size]

good luck don’t give up, but balance that at some point with you attempts


CMcG

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Daughter Agnes' middle names (Kennedy Richardson) are worth keeping in the back of your mind as you research:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02328/1871678.pdf

 
If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

tonyt071

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Thank you - Broadway is from Martha and David's marriage at Berry St Church 25 Dec 1889 -

CMcG

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Daughter Agnes' middle names (Kennedy Richardson) are worth keeping in the back of your mind as you research:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02328/1871678.pdf


Following the above line of enquiry, I wondered if the following civil registration for the birth of an Agnes Kennedy Anderson in 1866 could suggest that she was a younger sister of David, her parents were recorded as John Anderson (labourer) and Ellen Lockhart (note that as well) of Woodburn, Carrickfergus:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03533/2300407.pdf

Initially I tempered this with the thought that it might just be a co-incidence of names, but in following it up I happened upon the following marriage of an Agnes Anderson to Thomas Richardson:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10639/5876320.pdf

Note that the marriage took place in Berry St. Presbyterian Church, that Agnes's father was recorded as John Anderson (labourer), but most of all note the date of 27 September 1892, approx. 1 month before David Anderson and Martha Doherty had a daughter whom they named Agnes Kennedy Richardson Anderson, as I posted above.
 
Then note the following children to this couple, particularly some of the naming...
- Matilda Anderson Richardson in 1893:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02296/1861342.pdf
- Agnes Richardson in 1896:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02175/1823697.pdf
- Thomas Richardson in 1897:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02109/1802782.pdf
- Ellen Lockhard Richardson in 1900:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01977/1761887.pdf
- David Anderson Richardson in 1906:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01722/1681324.pdf

And note the family in 1901 and 1911, no sign of the father Thomas (presumably due to his job), but Agnes was living in the same household with what looks like a brother Samuel  Anderson and in 1911, everyone was described as 'Brethren'.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Klondyke_Street/949029/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Shankill/Klondyke_Street/151975/

And the following grave looks relevant:
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=D1&GraveNumber=139&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery

So if I were a betting man, I would be placing a modest stake on the possibility that the parents of the David Anderson who married Martha Doherty in 1889 were John Anderson and Ellen Lockhart. I'll keep looking at this, hopefully I or  someone can find something else to corroborate it.
 
If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

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Samuel Anderson died in 1917:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05225/4446256.pdf



I wonder if the 'H.' above was for 'Hamilton'... I noticed that David Anderson and Martha Doherty named a son Samuel Hamilton Anderson in 1912:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01504/1611237.pdf

In the same city cemetery grave as Samuel is an Ellen Anderson who died in 1900 with a reported age of 77:
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=R&GraveNumber=85&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery

The death registration confirms that she was the mother of Agnes Richardson and widow of John Anderson a labourer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05747/4623006.pdf

BTW, I noticed that while the birthplace for Samuel Anderson was given as Co Antrim in the 1911 census, it was given as Scotland in the 1901 census.  In that light, note the following reference posted by a member of the 'North of Ireland Family History Society' in the link below it:

LOCKHART, ANDERSON Seeking details of parents of Ellen Lockhart, Carrick. Early 1800s she
married John Anderson and moved to Belfast. He was said to have been a “serving" man (originally from Edinburgh) in her parental home in Carrickfergus.

https://www.nifhs.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Queries-27.1.pdf

So, maybe a Scottish angle to this.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

tonyt071

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Thank you so much - that's incredible - can I take a day to digest your logic and detail please? Finding a Scottish angle is very interesting because that line can more easily connect with Scandinavian ancestors which is the family gossip

CMcG

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Thank you so much - that's incredible - can I take a day to digest your logic and detail please? Finding a Scottish angle is very interesting because that line can more easily connect with Scandinavian ancestors which is the family gossip


No problem.  :)   

Based on the Carrickfergus backstory, here are 3 baptismal transcriptions I can see, 2 of which have interesting naming:

- William John Anderson, baptised in Carrickfergus Church of Ireland parish on 27 February 1845 (DOB given as 20 February 1845), parents given as John Anderson (labourer) and Ellen Lockhart;
- James Kennedy Anderson, baptised in Carrickfergus parish on 31 March 1854 (DOB given as 13 August 1853), parents given as John and Ellen Anderson of Woodburn Middle and West Division (John's occupation given as labourer);
- Samuel Hamilton Anderson, baptised on 16 July 1854 (DOB given as 8 February 1851) in Carrickfergus Church of Ireland parish, parents given as John and Ellen Anderson of Woodburn Middle and West Division (John's occupation given as labourer) - This is a reasonable fit for the Samuel Anderson living in the same household as the Richardsons in the 1901/1911 census returns that I previously posted.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

tonyt071

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Thank you - I should try to exchange information with member A3509 - North of Ireland FHS - LOCKHART, ANDERSON Seeking details of parents of Ellen Lockhart, Carrick. Early 1800s she married John Anderson and moved to Belfast. He was said to have been a “serving" man (originally from Edinburgh) in her parental home in Carrickfergus. Member A3509

- serving man = seaman - did John die at sea? - registers of death at sea 1844-1890 for Jno. Anderson

tonyt071

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I apologise for taking my time to digest the incredible information this forum helped me with.

I contacted the North of Ireland Family History Society regarding the post seeking the parents of Ellen Lockhart and the possible Scottish angle for her husband John Anderson. Unfortunately the member raising the search has now left the society.

I am surmising I still need to concentrate on Woodburn, Carrickfergus, probably Berry Street Church. I am also searching for the interesting middle names of Kennedy and Hamilton. I roughly have both sets of unnamed parents born abt 1800. [size=78%]Forgive my ignorance is Carrick the same as Carrickfergus?[/size]

So far I have drawn blanks - Should I start a new post or are there sources I should immediately start looking at?

Many thanks

tonyt071

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LOCKHART, ANDERSON Seeking details of parents of Ellen Lockhart, Carrick. Early 1800s shemarried John Anderson and moved to Belfast. He was said to have been a “serving" man (originally from Edinburgh) in her parental home in Carrickfergus. https://www.nifhs.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Queries-27.1.pdfHi, I drew a blank directly with the society but they did say at the back of the publication you shared are the details to contact the originator of the search directly. This edition in NOT on JSTOR - do you please mind checking for me?best regards Tony

JimG

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CARRICK QUESTION
Carrick  in Ireland from wikipedia
Carrick, County Armagh, a townland in County Armagh, Northern Ireland
Carrick, County Donegal
Carrick, County Fermanagh, a townland in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland
Carrick, County Kildare, a civil parish in County Kildare, Republic of Ireland
Carrick, County Londonderry, a civil parish and townland in County Londonderry, Northern Ireland
Carrick, County Tyrone, a townland in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland
Carrick, County Westmeath (civil parish), a civil parish in the barony of Fartullagh, County Westmeath, Republic of Ireland
Carrick, Fartullagh, a townland in the civil parish of Carrick, barony of Fartullagh, County Westmeath, Republic of Ireland
Carrick, Lackan, a townland in the civil parish of Lackan, barony of Corkaree, County Westmeath, Republic of Ireland
Carrick, Noughaval, a townland in the civil parish of Noughaval, barony of Kilkenny West, County Westmeath, Republic of Ireland
Carrick, St Mary's, a townland in the civil parish of St Mary's, barony of Fore, County Westmeath, Republic of Ireland
Carrick Mountain, a mountain in Wicklow, Republic of Ireland

in Co Antrim Carrick was a single-member county constituency of the Parliament of Northern Ireland ie after 1921, however it might well be abbreviated in use by Carrickfergus people over to them

WOODBURN
the area Woodburn Middle and West divisions Carrickfergus, I have not delved before into a parish that has employed these divisions before.
So starting with
1823-1837 Tithes Applotment Books http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/carrickfergus-saint-nicholas-parish.phpon
the results are
Anderson, Jas. Townland: Byrts Land Year: 1816
Anderson, Jno. Townland: Byrts Land Year: 1816
Anderson, Wm. Townland: Byrts Land Year: 1816
Anderson, Jas. Townland: Cloughey Lands Year: 1816
Anderson, Jno. Townland: Cloughey Lands Year: 1816
Anderson, Wm. Townland: Cloughey Lands Year: 1816
Anderson, Matthew Townland: Four Score Acres Year: 1816
Anderson, Jas. Townland: Peggs Land Year: 1816
Anderson, Jno. Townland: Peggs Land Year: 1816
Anderson, Wm. Townland: Peggs Land Year: 1816
so four townlands identified  but the change to much larger units the Divisions is happening during the time period of 45 years to the next census substitute Griffiths Valuation
1861 Griffiths Valuation has three sources
 1. https://www.failteromhat.com for quick index.   
2. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ for detail and map ref .. 
3. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books since 1863
Using 2 onlyand exploring one or two
Anderson, Samuel   L: Carrickfergus T: Carrickfergus - Joymount Bank
Anderson, James   L: Middle Division N: and Another
Anderson, John   L: North-East Division map ref  83   
40 acres house £4pa It has a named house Fairview.   On a current Google map its underneath an enclosed area bounded to Knights Ave  to the east, Knights ave is an extension of  Fairview Park . Looking ona satellite map the roads suggest the original building would have been at the top of Fairview Crescent.   My personal opinion is its not the homestead of a labourer.
Anderson, Edward   L: West Division
Anderson, John   L: West Division map ref 91c 30 perches house 10 shillingspa  Althoughthe west division int mentioned John might have changed address before moving to Belfast.  However my eyes are worn out and I must stop At least its another starting point over to you.
Anderson, Samuel   L: Carrickfergus T: Carrickfergus - Joymount Bank
Middle division is best found on the 1st edition OS maps1832-1846 and 2nd editions of historical maps showing as a large V shaped area of land running northwestwards from Carrickfergus itself.  Woodburn Forest is in Middle Division.  see https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-proni-historical-maps-viewer

switching to Lockhart