Author Topic: Twickenham Street  (Read 527 times)

dms51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Twickenham Street
« on: February 28, 2020, 05:04:28 PM »
Does anyone have any information about Twickenham Street in the 1930's? 

My grandmother, Mary Marshall lived there in the summer of 1934, at number 11.  She was twenty at the time, and originally from Ringdufferin near Killyleagh, but later moved to London.
 
I've read some old posts from 2010 and one from "Manitoba" seemed to show that he would have been there at that time, although twelve years younger than her.

Looking at some historic maps on PORNI,  Twickenham Street ran between the Crumlin Road, and Old Lodge Road, just opposite the Mather Hospital, but is no longer there.

Any information would be appreciated.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2020, 09:08:00 AM »
It's virtually the same notice that appeared for this address throughout 1934, it was published in the Belfast Telegraph on:

- 14 February
- 9-10 April
- 15-18 May
- 10 July
- 22 October onwards

(The gaps imply lets.)



If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Billy Fish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3945
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2020, 09:38:50 AM »
Twickenham Street which ran between the Old Lodge Road and Crumlin Road, 'disappeared' during the redevelopment of the Greater Shankill area. I think it was still there up until the 1970's.  :)
Support Soldier F
Remember the bravery and deeds of the Men & Women of the USC, RUC, RUC Reserve, the UDR, PSNI, but most of all the British Army.

dms51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2020, 05:37:21 PM »
Thank you both for that information. It would explain the short term let as my grandmother was in London by 1936. I wonder what she was doing there then. She wasn't a nurse, so that rules out the hospital.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2020, 08:19:27 PM »

Thank you both for that information. It would explain the short term let as my grandmother was in London by 1936. I wonder what she was doing there then. She wasn't a nurse, so that rules out the hospital.


It was pretty central to Belfast in terms of walking.  And of course, on the tram route.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Wanderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2020, 07:32:57 PM »
Just for interest, my maternal grandparents rented number 11 from about 1936 and my family kept it until the early 70s. The rental company was a firm called Blessington Fair.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 07:20:03 AM »






If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

dms51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2020, 05:51:30 PM »
Not Belfast I know, but I've found my grandmother's Northern Ireland residence permit card issued in March 1944. I guess she was back during the war.  She is shown as living at Altona Cottage, Hillsborough Old Road, Lisburn. The old PRONI (I've got it right this time) maps show that it existed then but now appears to be an industrial estate.

Does anyone know anything about this area? I seem to recall my mother saying that she was evacuated from London with her mother and a child about my mother's age drowned in the nearby river.

As before, any information would be appreciated.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2020, 10:26:44 PM »

Not Belfast I know, but I've found my grandmother's Northern Ireland residence permit card issued in March 1944. I guess she was back during the war.  She is shown as living at Altona Cottage, Hillsborough Old Road, Lisburn. The old PRONI (I've got it right this time) maps show that it existed then but now appears to be an industrial estate.

Does anyone know anything about this area? I seem to recall my mother saying that she was evacuated from London with her mother and a child about my mother's age drowned in the nearby river.

As before, any information would be appreciated.


The folk living there in June 1944 were a George Pattison and his wife Henrietta Heaney:



A couple of years earlier in March 1942, there is a death notice mentioning that address for an Eliza Pattison, widow of Hugh.

Here is the 1920 marriage record for George Pattison and Henrietta Heaney :

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09265/5354444.pdf

A 9 year old boy from the Hillsborough Old Road drowned in the nearby Ravarnet River in May 1947.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Wanderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2020, 10:20:20 AM »
Dear CMG,

The newspaper cutting of my grandfathers death has caused me a huge surprise. Now that I'm retired I might start looking into that side of the family. I no longer live in the UK so any advice would be most welcome. Kindest regards

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2020, 01:05:45 PM »

Dear CMG,

The newspaper cutting of my grandfathers death has caused me a huge surprise. Now that I'm retired I might start looking into that side of the family. I no longer live in the UK so any advice would be most welcome. Kindest regards


OK, I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but you can let me know what you think.

Starting with the following marriage in St. Patrick's, Belfast, on 3 June 1917 (free to view at the following link to the official Irish Government Registrar's website), the two parties were a 22 year old barman called James Green of 9 Annadale Street and a 21 year old Annie Hogan of 3 Donore Street, the two fathers were recorded as James Green (alive) and Daniel Hogan (dead), both farmers:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09742/5535242.pdf

James Green and Annie Hogan went on to have a number of children, but to cut to the chase I'll mention the one first who makes me think that these might be your folk... I can see a transcript of a baptism in Sacred Heart Church, Belfast, on 31 March 1929 for an Olive Teresa Green who was born the day before to parents James Green and Annie Hogan of 137 Manor Street, but critically, that baptismal record was subsequently annotated to say that Olive went on to marry a V.E. Thompson in St. Patrick's, Belfast, on 7 October 1949.  I'm thinking, that's a possible match for the mention in James Green's 1952 death notice of 'his sorrowing Daughter, Son-in-law and Grandson, Ol[?]ve, Victor and David Thompson...'.

Anyhow, in addition to Olive Teresa, James Green and Annie Hogan had other children, as follows:

- Bernadette Veronica Green, born 14 April 1918, baptised the next day in St. Patrick's, Belfast, the address was 3 Donore Street, father James was described as a shop assistant;

- Mary Monica Green, born 13 August 1919, baptised on the 15th in St. Patrick's, Belfast, the address was 62 Unity Street, father James was described as a barman, the baptismal record was subsequently annotated to say that Mary Monica went on to marry a Bernard Dargan on 5 February 1940;

- Thomas James Green, born 23 August 1920, baptised the next day in St. Patrick's, Belfast, as James Thomas Green, the address was 62 Unity Street, father James was described as a shop assistant;

- Josephine Green, born 3 December 1921, the address was 1 Donore Street, father James was described as a barman (I'm thinking that James might have been a spirit grocer or have worked in a spirit grocery at this time, hence the variation in the occupation);

- Anne Philomena Green, born 25 March 1925, baptised on the 28th in St. Patrick's, Belfast, the address was 17 Walbeck Street;

- Gerald Francis Green, born 14 October 1927, baptised on the 16th in St. Patrick's, Belfast, the address was 17 Walbeck Street;

- Margaret Mary Green, born 14 June 1931, baptised on the 16th in St. Patrick's, Belfast, the address was 50 Twickenham Street (that's another positive, not no. 11 as such, but at least in the right street).

Hopefully there is something here that will ring a bell for you or allow you to rule these folk out.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2020, 08:52:15 AM »

... Hopefully there is something here that will ring a bell for you or allow you to rule these folk out.


Wanderer, I've since read your old posts and see mention of James managing the Phoenix Bar and of the surname Dargan, so what I've posted is sounding more positive, I will try and track James and Annie back a generation...

Going back 6 years from their 1917 marriage to the 1911 census, the one thing that immediately strikes me is the following Hogan family (the daughter's age is a reasonable 'fit' for the Annie in the 1917 marriage), for as much as there are plenty of Hogans in Ireland in 1911, there aren't that many in the Belfast area, so definitely worth following up:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Falls__Belfast_/Elizabeth_Street/180811/

The interesting point about this family is the birthplace - Queen's County / County Laois... This is where family lore can be useful, as in, are you aware of a County Laois connection in the family?
 

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2020, 09:44:48 AM »

... I will try and track James and Annie back a generation...


Wanderer,  looking at the Hogan side, the following birth seems like a likely candidate for the Annie Hogan in that 1911 census return I posted, she was born on 29 May 1896 in Pallas, just west of Portlaoise, her stated father's name is a match for the father in the 1917 marriage record (Daniel Hogan) and the mother's name is a match for the mother in the 1911 census return (Julia Hogan, formerly Whelan):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02148/1817239.pdf
 
Then there is the following marriage in Ballyfin Church on 16 May 1893 between a Daniel Hogan of Maryborough and Julia Whelan of Pallas, the two fathers are recorded as Thomas Hogan and Daniel Whelan:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10600/5861799.pdf

Maryborough lies between Portlaoise and Pallas, while Ballyfin Church (St. Fintan's), lies just west of Pallas - you can see the church here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0565905,-7.4088267,3a,75y,52.81h,90.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6Ps37FfXGcF4p_Msugg-dw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6Ps37FfXGcF4p_Msugg-dw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D312.57538%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Another thing has struck me, if you take the birth of James and Annie (Hogan) Green's daughter Mary Monica in 1919 ...
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01242/1516293.pdf

... the St. Patrick's baptismal record for this daughter shows her sponsor's name as... Julia Hogan. Julia Hogan is also cited as the sponsor in the St. Patrick's baptismal record for James and Annie (Hogan) Green's daughter Anne Philomena in 1925, and another interesting co-incidence is that the family's stated address at that time (17 Walbeck Street) reads across to the following entries for Walbeck Street in the 1924 Belfast street directory on the Lennon Wylie website:

7. Hogan, Julia
17. Green, James

https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1924.htm

So it's all pointing towards it being the right folk.

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.

Wanderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2020, 09:25:44 AM »
May I begin by offering an apology to DMS51 for hijacking your post, secondly an apology to CMcG for not thanking you for your research. I have been in contact with my only remaining sibling, who lives in Australia, and your research has raised lots of fascinating questions and as we are in lockdown I will have plenty of time to do some digging, although any further information would be gratefully received. Thank you.

CMcG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9548
Re: Twickenham Street
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2020, 09:57:04 AM »
Wanderer, I'm struggling to track James Green back, there's a family out Enniskillen direction that caught my eye, but I've found nothing conclusive to tie them in.  What is interesting is that one of the 1952 death notices for James Green that I posted at Reply #6 mentions his 'Father and Brothers' - so clearly he had family still alive at that point, albeit the father must have been a brave age.

The problem is that very little is known about James, I mean, other than the knowledge of his marriage to Annie Hogan and the children they had, the only information currently available to track him back is what was in his 1917 marriage record... ie. he was born c. 1895 and his father was also called James Green and was a farmer. 

By the way, the 1940 marriage of Bernard Dargan and Mary Green took place in St. Patrick's Belfast. Bernard was described as a 22 year old soldier, residence given as Ballykinler Camp, his father was recorded as Bernard Dargan (a painter).  Mary was described as a 21 year old waiter from 11 Twickenham Street, her father was recorded as James Green (a barman). The two witnesses were George Hanna and Josephine Green (maybe Mary's younger sister born 1921?).

For the meantime, I'll let you digest and investigate what I've previously posted, it may be the case that you are able to come back and provide a lead to unlock the door on who the Greens were. 

If there are any images posted above that are important to you, take your own copy - I cannot guarantee they will appear indefinitely.