Parents of Margaret MONTAGUE 1808

[Bungy]

My 2g grandmother Margaret Montague married, by licence, Samuel Wright at St Anne's Belfast on 22 February 1835.  They bpt 4 children at St Anne's (Mary Ann 1836, Joseph 1838, Samuel 1840 and John 1842) before they moved to Sunderland, Co. Durham.  Margaret's age was consistent, indicating a birth in about 1808, in all census prior to her death in 1889.  In 1851 her place of birth was given as Malone.  In all the other census it was either Belfast or Ireland.
The administration for a Mary Montague in 1867 refers to Margaret the wife of Samuel Wright of Sunderland, the daughter and only next of kin.  So that gave me Margaret's mother.  Newspaper records show that Mary of 8 California Street, Belfast died on 17 Dec 1866.
Another newspaper record shows that Bernard Montague, of 8 California St, died on 17 Juy 1866 aged 54.  He was a corn dealer, and is shown at the same address in the Griffiths Valuation of 1860.  It's a fair assumption that he was Mary's son.

In the 1860 Griffiths Valuation there is a John Malone 'and another' living in 32 Cinnamond Street, Shankill.  There is also a Thomasina Montague in 13 Basin Lane.  I haven't been able to find out anything about John or Thomasina, so don't know if they are part of the family or not.
Does anyone have information about the Montague family or can suggest avenues for me to explore to fing Margaret's bpt and hence her father's name?

[JimG]

Hi Bungy and Welcome, i had a bad start on Montague but improved in the Wright descendants.

Marriage, by licence, sometimes meant special licence for a mixed marriage is something sometimes useful


The Montague Line sorry nothing found.
m Mary Montague nee ?  your 3g grandmother
children
Bernard Montague b m in 1861 was a corn buyer slennonwylie d 17 July 1866 aged 54 at 8 California Stin  a Bernard of Drumgarn made a will in 1840 that no longer survives see PRONI
Margaret Montague your 2g grandmother


searched Belfast City Cemetery and Clifton St cemeteries not Mill field , Balmoral etc
searched Tithe Applotment Books 1823-1837 and found none in Belfast
searched street directories
1852 Monteague, Thomas, waiter, 62 Cromac Street
see under wright




The Wright Line
Samuel Wright b~1805 Sunderland, Durham, in 1851 Shipwright, in 1861 Ship Carpenter in 1871 Nightwatchman, in 1881  Shipwright Seaman sFHorg
 m 22 February 1835 St Anne's Belfast Margaret Montague b~1808 Malone from 1851 census a village? of south Belfast d 1889
residences
1851    Whitburn Street, Sunderland
1861 Wilson St  Sunderland
1871 Monkwearmouth Shore, Durham
1881 Hodgsons Blgs Monk Wearmouth Shore, Durham
children
Mary Ann Wright bpt 1836 St Anne's Belfast in 1851 family entry, not in 1861 family entry m s FHorg 25 Dec 1858 Robert Watt Hedworth St Hendon? Durham
children
  Margaret watt b~1861 Monkwearmouth Durham
  Elizabeth May Watt chr 19 Oct 1862 Monkwearmouth a servant ? 1881 in Samuels house
Joseph  Wright bpt 1838 St Anne's Belfast not in 1851 & 1861 family entry
Samuel Wright bpt 1840 St Anne's Belfast
John Wright 1842 St Anne's Belfast
William Wright b~1846 in 1851 Sunderland Monkwearmouth Durham. in 1871 a shipwright


Street Directories www.lennonwyle and PRONI
1819 directory has no Montague listed
Wright, Samuel, hair dresser, 7 Mill Street
1841-2 directory selected Wrights included
Wright, Mrs., Dealer in Furniture, etc., 9 Smithfield.
Samuel Wright publican 95 millfield
1842-3 directory selected Wrights included
Wright, Mrs., Dealer in Furniture, etc., 9 Smithfield.
Samuel wright publican 95 millfield
1843 directory has no Montague listed selected Wrights included
Wright, Robert, Merchant, Fortfield.
Wright, Mrs., Dealer in Furniture, etc., 9 Smithfield.
Wright, Samuel, Carpenter, 14 Trafalgar Street.
hoping others can join in to help you

[Bungy]

Thanks Jim.  I live in hope that something will turn up for the Montague family. It's very frustrating to be stuck in the 1800's with that line.

I have quite a lot of information on the Wrights.  I have Samuel's birth & bpt & those of his 11 siblings, and have followed his children's lines to modern times.

[JimG]

You have done gathered alot of information that is clear to me.
please indulge me seeing it’s brickwall time.
I checked the chances that a St Annes ie the Cof I Cathedralmixed marriage meaning a catholic and protestant marriage might have taken place, its something that was channeled to St Annes  if one party was C of I. and to St Peters if catholic,  normal small churches referred to the main diocesan church. Whoever made the decision is never clear.  The 1901 censusshows  248 Montagues with Catholics 11, Protestants 237.   The 4475 Wrights have 16 Catholics in first 500 44 in 2nd 500 and I stopped as 4475 too many for me, so say 6% Catholic Protestant 945.  My question is have you seen the most detailed version of that marriage information.? Are there no more clues possible locations, witnesses, parents names etc?


Thomasina Montague of Basin Lane, Lower Malone [townland] Cromac Ward  The area Malone crops up. www.placenamesni.org/resultdetails.php?entry=6855  however it is not easy to find in street directories. A masters thesis exists https://pure.qub.ac.uk/en/studentTheses/the-growth-of-south-belfast.  the author S.T(revor). Carleton lists each building in a street or road as the area built up. Basin Lane should be listed.. I think a copy went to the LinenHall Library Belfast and maybe borrowable or photocopied there or at QUB Library.


Griffiths valuation for her property http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=010056&path=./pix/010/&rs=40&showpage=1&mysession=2717037829006&width=&height=
shows she had more than one property. her own is listed as map ref  9 15  in Basin Lane, she has house and small garden valued at £2 10 shillings her landlord is Reps Henry Joy. the next property listed is 10 16 is owned by her and a bigger house £3 10 shillings  sub let to William Eager 
the final 2 properties 11&12 are for land only, both  have owners named as Reps Henry Joy 9 [note Unoccupied is not]  the landlord entry reads Immediate Lessor


looking them up  on the map didnt work today Sunday so I switched to https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-proni-historical-maps-viewer
and quickly found Basin Lane used to run from Dublin road to the Gas Works  and overtime the lane has become developed as Bankmore Street


Using https://apps.proni.gov.uk/Val12B/Search.aspx to search for her in the continuation valuation books I found PRONI Reference: VAL/12/B/43/A/3 (1863 - 1881)
the pages numbers are best read from the digital numbering ie page 105 of 295 its crossed out suggesting its been done laterNo 10 has numerous tenants and she loses her tenancy to a Mr Anderson Nov 1863 again at page 107of 295 but wrong house numbers, I finished the book without finding the change of ownwership expected. There was a large section under Dublin Road with sub sections where it might be inserted, but that’s as much as I can do.


Suppose your Bernard Montague b~1812 was the son of a Bernard Montague from somewhere else in ireland
a Bernard Montague in Drumgarn townland Ireland exists in a will index the wills themselves apparently did not survive. it is the only reference to a Bernard Montague found so far by me
Drumgarn townland Mohill Civil Parish Co Leitrim see http://www.irelandgenweb.com/irllet/townlands/Drumgarn.htm
Drumgarn townland Ireland in Co Monaghan
before I look have you searched in these Counties?
 
Finally John Montague in Belfast I could do a final search if wanted

[Bungy]

Thank you Jim for those thoughts - you've obviously spent a lot of time on my problem.  I've spent the last couple of days mulling over what you said.I received from St Anne's the marriage record of Margaret & Samuel Wright.  This merely stated that they were both of Belfast.  The surnames of both witnesses were McStay.  That may or may not be significant.  As I haven't see other mges in that church I don't know if, for instance, they were church officials.  I hadn't considered that Margaret might be a Catholic given the fact that the marriage took place in St Anne's and that the children were baptised there.  Samuel was brought up a non-conformist in Sunderland.  The licence might reveal more about Margaret, but I have only found the index entries.  I wonder if the original licence and allegation exist somewhere? 
The bpt of Margaret in about 1808 would be very useful!!!  I wonder if the 1851 entry giving her place of birth as Malone gives a clue.  Perhaps she was bpt in St John's there.  Do those records exist?
Grasping at straws, I have ordered the death certificates for both Margaret's mother, Mary, and her brother, Bernard. They might contain some helpful information, if only the person notifying the death.I think I'll park any enquiries into Thomasina for the moment.  Other than the fact that she has the same surname as Margaret there's no indication as yet that she was related.  It may not of course even be her maiden name.I had arranged to visit both Belfast & Dublin this month - but Covid-19 has put a stop to that. The government here in Australia won't allow us to leave the country.  Maybe 2022????Thanks again for your ideas.

[Bungy]

An update re the Montague family.  I have obtained the death certificates for both Mary and her son Bernard.  They provided some information which I feel should be useful in my search - but haven't yet worked out how!  Bernard, bachelor of 8 California Street died on 17 Jul 1866.  The death was registered on 21st September by John McKeown of 10 Unity Street.  Bernard's mother Mary, widow of a servant, of 8 California Street died on 17th December 1867 and the death was registered on 8 January 1867 my Mary E Cooper also of 10 Unity Street.
My question is, what was the connection with Unity Street?  The only one of that name I have found is in Carrickfergus.  That seems to be a long way from California Street to be 'present at the death'.  Also why 2 different names at the same address?
Looking at street view for the Unity Street I found the houses have the appearance of having been family dwellings rather than multiple occupancies.  So why the different names of the informants?

[Bread Basket]

An update re the Montague family.  I have obtained the death certificates for both Mary and her son Bernard.  They provided some information which I feel should be useful in my search - but haven't yet worked out how!  Bernard, bachelor of 8 California Street died on 17 Jul 1866.  The death was registered on 21st September by John McKeown of 10 Unity Street.  Bernard's mother Mary, widow of a servant, of 8 California Street died on 17th December 1867 and the death was registered on 8 January 1867 my Mary E Cooper also of 10 Unity Street.
My question is, what was the connection with Unity Street?  The only one of that name I have found is in Carrickfergus.  That seems to be a long way from California Street to be 'present at the death'.  Also why 2 different names at the same address?
Looking at street view for the Unity Street I found the houses have the appearance of having been family dwellings rather than multiple occupancies.  So why the different names of the informants?

Hi Bungy,
Take a look at the map I sent you a while back when you were enquiring about California St & Old Lodge Rd.
Unity St is less than a stones throw away.
I’ve marked Unity St in Red.

Lennon & Wylie 1868 Shows a McKeown for number 10 so that’s pretty consistent   Mary Cooper more that likely was another family on a separate floor who shared the same house... nothing unusual about that..

[Bungy]

Thank you - I had relied on Google to find the street, forgetting it may no longer exist.Obviously it was close at hand - although I still wonder about the different individuals registering the deaths.  Time will tell, hopefully!