Anyone from the shore road area of Belfast?.

[Dargan]

Hi Dargan, you may be onto something as regards your item 3. There were 5 of these unbaptised childrens burial sites in the adjoining townlands to the one in which I lived. This was in south Kerry and these sites were known as callunachs. One day in a neighbour's house we were discussing these when a woman arrived and joined in. It came about that she had a child buried in the one near my house in the mid 1970s. What I found difficult to grasp was the fact that she did not recognise her still-born child as being a person, simply because it had not been baptised. I did not press the matter. Family and a neighbour buried the body and that was the end. Perhaps if some old person were to speak you might find a similar burial and the site of the grave.
A friend who applied for planning permission had 2 of these on his land and had to notify the archeological society who noted the position of the sites and allowed him to plough and grass them over. I believe the clergy had no real interest in these.
Perhaps the Land Commision or Ordinance Survey in Dublin might have the information you require.

Roy, do you mean that the burials were kind of unsanctioned by any authority? That people just knew there were certain tracts of land that they were allowed by some ancient tradition to bury people on and just got on with it, as in the case of your neighbour when she had this still-born infant? Years ago I tried to find out about this graveyard but the normal channels knew nothing at all about it. I'll find that letter and put it on. Keep in touch with your ideas.

Regards,
Dargan

[Dargan]

Also, Roy, you've highlighted the possibility of looking into the history of townlands around that area. But why am I thinking that townland names didn't apply in the "Greater Belfast" area? I've read so much I've forgotten a lot and am getting foggy too.

What really interests me is establishing the burial site and then going back further to discover what, in earlier centuries, gave rise to such a place? An ancient church, or something else?

To all: Can any of you who played here recall anything at all that may have been a very ancient ruin? A crumbling wall? An odd stone which seemed out of place? Anything unusual or which didn't seem to "fit" into what was then a modern context of things?

This is another thing: my mother remembers a ruin on Fortwilliam Park exactly at the entrance to Dunlambert (Drive?) which is the road St. Katharine's is on.

Thanks to you all for your patience and assistance with this. That area is an unexplored historical goldmine. I'm certain of it.

Regards,
Dargan

[Daz55]

Yes Tommy that be great could be a bit of a get together here im sure some of the gang here would meet up and we could have a good night of it, just let me know mate and we can exchange no's and arrange something no problem. Daz.

[chuckat381]

drove past bottom of fortwilliam today and dont know why but a quick glance at left hand side of arches and a bit of ground at the bottom of st katherines chuch looked very creepy.will get a pic of it and post it.

[Dargan]

drove past bottom of fortwilliam today and dont know why but a quick glance at left hand side of arches and a bit of ground at the bottom of st katherines chuch looked very creepy.will get a pic of it and post it.

Please do that Chuck.

Regards,
Dargan

[Dargan]

From what I can see, Fortwilliam seems to belong to the townland of "Low Wood" (this is how it's referred to). That is interesting in itself as most townlands are corruptions of old Irish words and Low Wood is referred to as an "English word." This might give another clue to the mystery of Fortwilliam; for why is there an English grouping of words for this place? Was an older word superimposed upon? I know that it does occur as I have a friend involved in the preservation of townlands and that there are old banners representing them, and some new ones have been made up in recent years. She is in Ballycarry, the village near Larne.

Also, I wonder why Ringan Point lost its name through the ages as a landmark? Yes, it was no longer a potential landing place for boats along a stretch of coast, but so what? Why shed it? It is a beautiful, elegant name!

If I lived at Fortwilliam Grange or anywhere on Lower Fortwilliam Park or the Shore Road near where McCloy's was, Oakmount etc., I'd incorporate Ringan Point into my address -- not for pretentious reasons, but as a means to revive the old name and give something back to an area which has lost so much.

In fact, if I was over there I wouldn't half kick up about everything lost, rejected, abandoned and contrary to the preservation of the road's heritage.

I just don't know why the Shore Road is so disregarded and some very intriguing aspects of its past remain ignored. Tsh. I don't know whether all this is better out or in.

Rant over.

I hope you lads have a pleasant meet-up in May. 

If anyone out there knows anything or can think of anything that needs to be said about Fortwilliam/Ringan Point, do not hesitate to come forward!

If anyone knows who I can get in touch to campaign about reinstating the old name, let me know. They'd never hear the end of it until it happened. 

Regards to all,

Dargan

[RobRoy]

Roy, do you mean that the burials were kind of unsanctioned by any authority? That people just knew there were certain tracts of land that they were allowed by some ancient tradition to bury people on and just got on with it, as in the case of your neighbour when she had this still-born infant? Years ago I tried to find out about this graveyard but the normal channels knew nothing at all about it. I'll find that letter and put it on. Keep in touch with your ideas.

Regards,
Dargan

That's just about it Dargan, have a look here     

 https://www.artistswithoutwalls.com/tag/unbaptized-babies/

[tommytwotoes]

hi guys ,, now the bit that confuses me (AND THATS NOT HARD NOW DAYS )  is the mention of the suicides graves, and peggy Barclays tavern/inn in the same breath , or even the same area , iv been searching peggys all week now wot I found out is peggys inn WAS situated in wot was known as the lanes the inn was in waring street, next to the sugarhouse  entry, in 1790,s it became known as the MUDDLERS CLUB in 1798, it was later owned by a mr Michael fallon, in 1818 it was then that secret meetings were held by henry joy  McCracken  were a group called themselves united Irishmen (AND WE ALL KNOW WERE THAT LEAD) who started a form of news paper called the Irishman weekly, in the the middle 1800,s the inn was then called the BAMBRIDGE BAR, IT WAS DESTOYED IN WW11 and no futher history was recorded for it, SO unless our peggy owned two taverns/inns and ringans point is at fort William im confused but interestingly RINGAN is irish for NINIAN  so ST NINIAN comes to mind and im convinced the old church site is were st katherines is buit on  and the graves are somewere in that area and don't forget I have recently mentioned the waste ground rite below the church at the back , never been build on ,,,,,, I hope I remembered all this or il look a rite pratt lol   regards tommy

[Dargan]

That's just about it Dargan, have a look here     

 https://www.artistswithoutwalls.com/tag/unbaptized-babies/

Cheers Roy, will do. 

[Dargan]

hi guys ,, now the bit that confuses me (AND THATS NOT HARD NOW DAYS )  is the mention of the suicides graves, and peggy Barclays tavern/inn in the same breath , or even the same area , iv been searching peggys all week now wot I found out is peggys inn WAS situated in wot was known as the lanes the inn was in waring street, next to the sugarhouse  entry, in 1790,s it became known as the MUDDLERS CLUB in 1798, it was later owned by a mr Michael fallon, in 1818 it was then that secret meetings were held by henry joy  McCracken  were a group called themselves united Irishmen (AND WE ALL KNOW WERE THAT LEAD) who started a form of news paper called the Irishman weekly, in the the middle 1800,s the inn was then called the BAMBRIDGE BAR, IT WAS DESTOYED IN WW11 and no futher history was recorded for it, SO unless our peggy owned two taverns/inns and ringans point is at fort William im confused but interestingly RINGAN is irish for NINIAN  so ST NINIAN comes to mind and im convinced the old church site is were st katherines is buit on  and the graves are somewere in that area and don't forget I have recently mentioned the waste ground rite below the church at the back , never been build on ,,,,,, I hope I remembered all this or il look a rite pratt lol   regards tommy

CRACKER tommy! Just brilliant, and Peggy must have had 2 places indeed, and either there was one at Buttermilk Loaney or Fortwilliam, and I'm inclined to think Fortwilliam because of the Rev. Batt's words about his tour of the place in 1830ish. We're getting somewhere!!

I'm going to get this box out tonight and see what else is in it of relevance to all this. tommy, take a look at RobRoy's link too and we'll see what, between us all, we can figure out. My google A3 size prints show some ground markings. Will get them on over the weekend.

Regards,
Dargan

[Dargan]

[tommytwotoes]

HEY DARGAN that's quite chilling in fact bloody sad,, ta think I use ta crawl in and out of hedge rows ooooh chills me bones ,, dargan do ya think ft/William MIGHT at some time been called RINGAN POINT  ,  just a thought , I do agree with you spent hours reading up on rev batts , but as you stated WHY would someone or some authorities get rid of a name to a place or maybe they want to hide some sort of sordid history they  hoped would go away ,, well tough cos we are on their case,( now reading of the mill grinding folk) do you think there was an actual painting of the description in the text ,  would love ta find that , cant wait ta go home town halls planning depts., historians they,l wish they never met me  my note book is filled with dates places and questions ,,,,,, tommy

[tommytwotoes]

hmmm , interesting dargan , do you think they are fobbing people of when they make inquiries about the graves im starting to get the feeling they are trying to hide things ,,, was the two houses the cottages in the letter ?  I see they spell ringan /ringen  regards tommy  I forgot this bit last known pic of peggy Barclays , last called bambridge hotel

[tommytwotoes]

Yes Tommy that be great could be a bit of a get together here im sure some of the gang here would meet up and we could have a good night of it, just let me know mate and we can exchange no's and arrange something no problem. Daz.

  danny look forward to it mate ,,, tommy

[Dargan]

tommy! Call me thick but I've just realised that we now have 2 sites for the graveyard! One is the salt-marsh and the other is on the rising ground! I'm getting so confused! I've said it all along, the Shore Road is an extremely difficult place to research! Nobody cares!